Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

When did Circus Circus run Griffons?

They never \'raced\' them. But during the 1981 season, as the Griffon Bud was soundly thrashing both the Atlas Van Lines and Circus Circus teams, Bill Bennett (who was part owner of the Circus Circus Hotel/Casino, and the hydro guy of the partnership)got together with Bill Muncey and made the decision that both of them were going to \'go Griffon\' for 1982. Bennett had been running the experimental 4-point boat--which, incidentally, tried running a turbocharged Merlin--and Muncey was toying with Allison-rod Merlins...both of which met with disasterous results.

They were going to partner together and pool engine resources. In late September 1981, Bennett located a large stash of Griffon engines and (according to Fran)notified Bill Muncey that \"he had just procured them\". That part of the story is backed up by talking with Jeff Neff, who was the head engine wrench for the Bud team at that time. At the Acapulco race, literally minutes before Muncey was killed, they were getting the boats in the water and Muncey turned to Neff and said \"Your driver\'s getting soft...tell him this is the last race he\'s gonna have this advantage!\"

But after Muncey was killed, Bennett started taking heat from the Circus Circus board about wasting money on boat racing (the team had only qualified for two races that year and managed to finish only one heat--in last place--despite one of the biggest budgets). So Circus Circus pulled out of racing for several years. And at the same time Fran and Atlas were deciding if they were going to continue racing after Bill\'s death. They ended up building a new boat and staying with Merlins...so the Griffons just sort of fell by the wayside.

Where did they go? I don\'t know. Did Circus ever actually have them in their possession? I don\'t know that either. I know that in the mid/late 1980\'s, Circus Circus got rid of their racing inventory. The two 4-point hulls and several of the Merlins got donated to Bob Williams (the first incarnation of the Hydroplane Museum), and all of the engines were sold to raise money. I do know that no Griffons were involved in that transaction.

So was it merely a paper-ownership as opposed to possession? Not sure. There was talk of a warehouse full of Griffons, but nobody I know in the sport ever saw them. Perhaps Bernie ended up buying them from Bennett to add to his inventory, since he ended up running the Griffons for another 5 years.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

I think Bill \"Tiger\" use to have some Griffons outside his hanger. Don\'t know whatever happened to them.

The only time I physically SAW any Griffons at Tiger\'s hangar, it was a total of one, sitting on a stand with the Shackelton spinners mounted on it, out back next to the truck. It was worn down and exposed to the elements. That was about 1990.

[kiwiracefan]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

They never \'raced\' them. But during the 1981 season, as the Griffon Bud was soundly thrashing both the Atlas Van Lines and Circus Circus teams, Bill Bennett (who was part owner of the Circus Circus Hotel/Casino, and the hydro guy of the partnership)got together with Bill Muncey and made the decision that both of them were going to \'go Griffon\' for 1982. Bennett had been running the experimental 4-point boat--which, incidentally, tried running a turbocharged Merlin--and Muncey was toying with Allison-rod Merlins...both of which met with disasterous results.

They were going to partner together and pool engine resources. In late September 1981, Bennett located a large stash of Griffon engines and (according to Fran)notified Bill Muncey that \"he had just procured them\". That part of the story is backed up by talking with Jeff Neff, who was the head engine wrench for the Bud team at that time. At the Acapulco race, literally minutes before Muncey was killed, they were getting the boats in the water and Muncey turned to Neff and said \"Your driver\'s getting soft...tell him this is the last race he\'s gonna have this advantage!\"

But after Muncey was killed, Bennett started taking heat from the Circus Circus board about wasting money on boat racing (the team had only qualified for two races that year and managed to finish only one heat--in last place--despite one of the biggest budgets). So Circus Circus pulled out of racing for several years. And at the same time Fran and Atlas were deciding if they were going to continue racing after Bill\'s death. They ended up building a new boat and staying with Merlins...so the Griffons just sort of fell by the wayside.

Where did they go? I don\'t know. Did Circus ever actually have them in their possession? I don\'t know that either. I know that in the mid/late 1980\'s, Circus Circus got rid of their racing inventory. The two 4-point hulls and several of the Merlins got donated to Bob Williams (the first incarnation of the Hydroplane Museum), and all of the engines were sold to raise money. I do know that no Griffons were involved in that transaction.

So was it merely a paper-ownership as opposed to possession? Not sure. There was talk of a warehouse full of Griffons, but nobody I know in the sport ever saw them. Perhaps Bernie ended up buying them from Bennett to add to his inventory, since he ended up running the Griffons for another 5 years.

hmm i wonder what happened to all the griffons...

[BuckyD]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Originally Posted by Lockheed Bob
I think Bill \"Tiger\" use to have some Griffons outside his hanger. Don\'t know whatever happened to them.

The only time I physically SAW any Griffons at Tiger\'s hangar, it was a total of one, sitting on a stand with the Shackelton spinners mounted on it, out back next to the truck. It was worn down and exposed to the elements. That was about 1990.

The last time I was at Tiger's hangar was at the end of April '87 for the Minter Field Airshow (when we lost our good friend Dave Z) & I seem to recall seeing several Griffon engines outside on crude stands (as per Lockheed Bob's note), & they looked rather rough,-like they'd been retrieved fm a lengthy outside storage someplace else. (Now, I'm not swearing to it w/o checking my files first, but that's what my craggy ole' memory banks are flashing back to me).

DBD

[stuntflyr]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

They never \'raced\' them. But during the 1981 season, as the Griffon Bud was soundly thrashing both the Atlas Van Lines and Circus Circus teams, Bill Bennett (who was part owner of the Circus Circus Hotel/Casino, and the hydro guy of the partnership)got together with Bill Muncey and made the decision that both of them were going to \'go Griffon\' for 1982. Bennett had been running the experimental 4-point boat--which, incidentally, tried running a turbocharged Merlin--and Muncey was toying with Allison-rod Merlins...both of which met with disasterous results.

They were going to partner together and pool engine resources. In late September 1981, Bennett located a large stash of Griffon engines and (according to Fran)notified Bill Muncey that \"he had just procured them\". That part of the story is backed up by talking with Jeff Neff, who was the head engine wrench for the Bud team at that time. At the Acapulco race, literally minutes before Muncey was killed, they were getting the boats in the water and Muncey turned to Neff and said \"Your driver\'s getting soft...tell him this is the last race he\'s gonna have this advantage!\"

But after Muncey was killed, Bennett started taking heat from the Circus Circus board about wasting money on boat racing (the team had only qualified for two races that year and managed to finish only one heat--in last place--despite one of the biggest budgets). So Circus Circus pulled out of racing for several years. And at the same time Fran and Atlas were deciding if they were going to continue racing after Bill\'s death. They ended up building a new boat and staying with Merlins...so the Griffons just sort of fell by the wayside.

Where did they go? I don\'t know. Did Circus ever actually have them in their possession? I don\'t know that either. I know that in the mid/late 1980\'s, Circus Circus got rid of their racing inventory. The two 4-point hulls and several of the Merlins got donated to Bob Williams (the first incarnation of the Hydroplane Museum), and all of the engines were sold to raise money. I do know that no Griffons were involved in that transaction.

So was it merely a paper-ownership as opposed to possession? Not sure. There was talk of a warehouse full of Griffons, but nobody I know in the sport ever saw them. Perhaps Bernie ended up buying them from Bennett to add to his inventory, since he ended up running the Griffons for another 5 years.

Hi Randy and jim,
I was flying co-pilot for Rod Zaff (sp) in 1994 right after the Evergreen Air Show at Marana where Darryl Bond had spoken to an assembled bunch of us about his interest in a Griffon powered Yak. Darryl wondered where to get engines and Rod said that the team he drove for was selling theirs. He indicated they had more than five complete runners.
That was a long time ago, and it never went anywhere. I passed along Rod's number to Darryl and history shows that there was no movement.
Chris...

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Hi Randy and jim,
I was flying co-pilot for Rod Zaff (sp) in 1994 right after the Evergreen Air Show at Marana where Darryl Bond had spoken to an assembled bunch of us about his interest in a Griffon powered Yak. Darryl wondered where to get engines and Rod said that the team he drove for was selling theirs. He indicated they had more than five complete runners.
That was a long time ago, and it never went anywhere. I passed along Rod's number to Darryl and history shows that there was no movement.
Chris...

It's Rod Zapf, Chris. Rod is a very successful limited hydroplane racer, and drove for the Stiles family in '91 and '92. "Drove" is something of a misnomer because the boat only showed up at two races and made it on the water at one. It never qualified...not sure if it even completed a single lap.

The Stiles guys bought the "Bubble Bud" hull...which was the third and last Griffon hull built for the Budweiser team. They got several engines along with the sale. The Stiles had no money and not much in the way of resources...but from what I remember they tried to turbocharge the Griffons, and it just didn't work.

The hull was sold to a racer in Seattle several years ago who used it for parts, but I'm not sure where the motors went.

[Dialtapper]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Speaking of motors, I came across a couple of Packard V-12's that where used in PT boats. Would love to put one in a 25' Daycruiser. Does anyone know if they where used in boat racing?

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Speaking of motors, I came across a couple of Packard V-12's that where used in PT boats. Would love to put one in a 25' Daycruiser. Does anyone know if they where used in boat racing?

Big Jim will be your expert on that topic...he participated in blowing up several of these in 1988 with Fred Leland's crew.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

The Packard PT boat engines (not to be confused with a license-built Pacakard Merlin) have actually been tried in Unlimited Hydroplanes twice.

The first attempt was from 1961-63 by Lee Schoenith and "Wild Bill" Cantrell for the Gale Enterprises team. They took the twin-Allison engined Gale VI and re-engined it with a single 1M-3300 V-16 Packard as the Gale VII. While it 'ran', it was never competitive. They found that it had no low-end torque and accellerated like a fat cow.

The second attempt was (as the esteemed Lt. Col. pointed out) run by Fred Leland in 1984, 1988-91. Leland used a 4M-2500 V-12 Packard mated with a Merlin gearbox. It never completed a lap in 1984, nor in 1988 (when I had a hand in building and blowing up at least seven in pre-season testing and attempted qualifying at one race). We ended up re-configuring the boat to take Merlins. Every time we ran the Packard, we ended up throwing a rod through the case after less than a lap. I have a box full of scorched and twisted rods and pistons left over from that adventure.

I went on to greener pastures the next year, but I know the team continued to 'experiment' with the Packard but retained the ability to switch over to a Merlin if they needed to...which they did a lot of the time. It always seemed to be an oil starvation issue with the Packard, but I don't think they got it figured out. They returned to the dock under their own power for one heat race in 1991, and then they gave it up and built a turbine boat the following year.

[kiwiracefan]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

big Jim....
This has been an amazing thread to learn more about the UNL Hydro's with the merlins and Alison's... i was wondering, if the Alison is such a strong motor, why cant the power be developed out of them like a Merlin? I know the Merlin has a slightly smaller capacity, but is the Alison just not able to take the big power required for racing?

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

big Jim....
This has been an amazing thread to learn more about the UNL Hydro's with the merlins and Alison's... i was wondering, if the Alison is such a strong motor, why cant the power be developed out of them like a Merlin? I know the Merlin has a slightly smaller capacity, but is the Alison just not able to take the big power required for racing?

The supercharger just isn't big/powerful enough. They have had success turbocharging the Allison, but just like they have found in the airplanes, unless you just tweak the heck out of it, the Allison won't stand up to the Merlin in terms of horsepower in a racing environment.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Here's a couple pics of the 1988 V-12 Packard mated to the Merlin blower.

Photo credit goes to my friend and former team mate Randy Roe.

[kiwiracefan]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

The supercharger just isn't big/powerful enough. They have had success turbocharging the Allison, but just like they have found in the airplanes, unless you just tweak the heck out of it, the Allison won't stand up to the Merlin in terms of horsepower in a racing environment.

Many thanks for that, i love this learning...

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Also, what works with boats and their fast spinning screws may not work with an aircraft swinging a heavy, large diameter propeller that is found working occasionally in dirty air as one plane passes behind another.

As hard as Unlimited Hydros are/were on the V-12s, the torsional and rotational vibrations of aircraft props are more severe. The Merlins seem to be better capable of handling propeller-related stresses at higher than normal power levels (meaning GOLD RACE power levels).

[First time Juke]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

I would put P-51 H wingfoil on this Palomino wing and a Packard Merlin. Maybe shorten the wings by 3 feet.

There you go !

Unfortunately I can do this only after my Fenix II aerial scooter has sold millions.

VERY WIDE GRINN here !