Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

[BuckyD]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Chris, I'm pretty sure that Dave Zeuschel & Mac McClain went over to England to round-up the Shackleton Griffons & contra-prop parts for the RB-51 conversion.

In '79 when I drove Mac to the MGM after meeting his post-sunset arrival at Stead w/the yet-upainted #69 Jeannie, he told me that their original plan was to put a Zeuschel 'race-prepared' Griffon into NX79111 & they'd already made all the necessary engine compt. mods to accomodate the bigger motor & use a 5-bladed Rotol prop (vs. the RB contra-prop mod) w/it. He & Z wanted to first see how well the race Merlin did that year, before going through with the Griffon plan.

Would've been- 'interesting', at the very least, to see how well a race-prepped Z-Griffon & the 5-blade airscrew would've panned-out. Of course, the Merlin worked just fine at the time, and that was the end of that idea...

DBD

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Would\'ve been- \'interesting\', at the very least, to see how well a race-prepped Z-Griffon & the 5-blade airscrew would\'ve panned-out. Of course, the Merlin worked just fine at the time, and that was the end of that idea...

But also remember that when Z first proposed the \"house racer\" for Preston, it had the Griffon/Rotol design too. I\'ve seen drawings with it mocked up that way.

Preston, however, wanted nothing to do with the Griffon.

[Race5]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

No one has put the same kind of R&D into a Griffon as has been the Merlin...nor will anyone...ever.

The reason Dave Z used the Griffon (1975) was there were a ton of them for sale for next to nothing, hence the props. (Big Australian sale of Shackelton surplus stuff.) The reason the Whittington's used the Griffon (1988) was that they had some leftover from the next to nothing period, with the props. The reason Miss Ashley had the Griffon (1995) was that the owners had some left over from the next to nothing sales, with the props.
That's 35 years ago, 22 years ago and 15 years ago. All the airplanes were wrecked, the one left is running on empty as far as spares and is parked anyway, and there is no money behind any excited, innovative engine builder's program.

There will be no more R&D on it as there will be no engines with which to do it. No props (or nosecases for the slick 5 blader either, ask any Mk XIV owner) and no dough.

This stuff costs 10 or 20 TIMES more than it has ever cost to do in the past. No stores, no parts, no reserve. WWII was 70 years ago. Too long ago, all the cheap surplus excess stuff is gone.

It's OVER.

Apparently someone has found the nose case stuff for the four / five blade props. Two recently restored Seafires are flying with them, and at least one more is due to fly. I wouldn't bet on it being the end just yet.....

[Leo]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

D'Allasandris's Mustang now wears a Merlin again, I think it has for years.
Was sitting in a hanger at Stead this year. Nice civvie paint.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

D\'Allasandris\'s Mustang now wears a Merlin again, I think it has for years.
Was sitting in a hanger at Stead this year. Nice civvie paint.

Different airplane.

Both Mustangs were owned by D\'Allasandris, and both had similar paint jobs. The one modified with the Allison was sold and later owned/raced by Rheinschild as \"Miss Fit\" and later as the \"Jacky C\". I think it\'s back in Delaware now either still as \"Jacky C\", but possibly as \"Shangri-La\".

[kiwiracefan]

Re: yep...

MAII's Griffons were the 'small' ones, and never had the capacity for the horsepower potential that the 'big' ones in #5 & #09/38 had.

im pretty sure MA II used the same Griffon 58 that RB & PM used. Thats why the Contra Prop, the Griffon 58 and Contra-Prop were used in the Shackeltons. The only other Griffon to use a Contra-Prop in service was on the Seafire Mk46/47 and that used the Griffon 87

[RichH]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

im pretty sure MA II used the same Griffon 58 that RB & PM used. Thats why the Contra Prop, the Griffon 58 and Contra-Prop were used in the Shackeltons. The only other Griffon to use a Contra-Prop in service was on the Seafire Mk46/47 and that used the Griffon 87

Yes but RB grafted on the two-stage blower from a different dash-number engine. MAII used the stock single-stage and that's what Big_Jim is referring to big vs little...

[kiwiracefan]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Yes but RB grafted on the two-stage blower from a different dash-number engine. MAII used the stock single-stage and that's what Big_Jim is referring to big vs little...

I Knew RB had the 2 stage from a 70 series griffon grafted on the back of the griffon 58 and turned it upside down, so they could down draft the PR58 carb from an R2800, PM has the mk 74 griffon with a PR100 carb setup and MA II according to the research ( and the Griffon powered mustang raceplane tech book) had the mk 58/PR58 combo as used in the RB

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Fun discussion about Griffons. What I was refering to about the blower issue was that no one ever got the 2 stage blower sorted out. The failure of the special made gears in RB was what led to the crash. In most cases the Griffon was used because the cost just made them seem too attractive not to try. I'd agree those days are probably over. (I think Bill Rogers told me once that he had access to 7 zero timed engines that were ex RAF for someting like 5K each because there was just no market for them, same basic story for the 6 blade props).

There was a similar situation with 3350s at one time. The Blaind Man's Bluff guys were buying "new" 3350s in cans for less thant 10K each. They had so many of them they even tested a few to destruction on dynos. Now I understand 3350s are scarce and parts are expensive.

But who knows, there still might be stashes of hydroplane parts somewhere, at the peak of "proper" unlimited hydorplane racing the Circus Circus team was said to have over 70 Griffons sitting around somewhere.

So the only thing I think I could ever say for sure is I'd never say anything is a sure thing.

Again... someone here in the forums needs to win the lottery and build a 2800 racer based on this airframe kit.... Actually here is a ponderable. If you could start with either a P-51 airframe or the FW-190 airframe (since both now seem available as kits), which would be a better starting point? Or should you just do someting like the two ground up jet wing based racer projects?

One other question, does anyone know of the relative availability of our favorite racing engines,

So how common/rare/cheap/expensive are the

2800
3350
4360
Merlin
Griffon

and are there any "dark horse" engines that could be explored like

big Russian radials
Allisions

I would be fun if anyone with some first hand knowledge could share for example what is still flying that uses any of the above engines. I know there are still commerical aircraft flying 2800s and 3350s. I thought the last thing flying the 4360 was the big Mars flaying boat and they converted that to 3350s. At one time the National Guard was flying some 4360 powered tankers but I thought they were all retired (I remember being at an airshow and watching people standing under them get covered with oil as they dripped )


Spacegrrrl

[kiwiracefan]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

and are there any "dark horse" engines that could be explored like

big Russian radials
Spacegrrrl

hmmm Spacegrrrl..... ive wondered the same... has anyone explored the possibility of one of the big russian radials.. The Soviets copied the B-29 down to the last nut and bolt.. The Ash-73 Radial was a development of the M25 which in itself was a copy of the Wright Cyclone 1820. So the Big Ash 73 while not a direct copy was developed about the same time to a similar requirement as the R3350, actually has some interchangable parts with the R3350

[Race 29]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

To my knowlege the TU-4's are kinda rare now'a days, but I could be wrong. I wonder if the parts for those engines would be any less rare.

A few years back I went to Budapest Hungary. Driving out of the Ferihegy airport there was a TU-4 "Bull" on display with a few other soviet airplanes as gate guards. Google maps (satellite view) shows that the TU-4 has since been removed. However the Li-2 (Soviet DC-3 copy) is still there. There's a couple Il-18's there, but there's no way an Il-18 can be confused with a TU-4.

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[Race 29]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

I did a little more research and there seems to only be 3 known survivors, and none are in Hungary. However I know what I saw and that was about 12 years ago. Hopefully it's been moved to a place where it's not rotting away!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4

Race 29

[bluffman]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Spacegrrrl, We, the "Blind Man's Bluff" guys did buy several 3350-26 WD engines at very low price. We only ran ONE to destruction on the dyno at Gary Aerospace in Hondo, Texas, to find the weak points, or whatever, but ran several to make sure they were O.K after being stored for a long time, and also because we had no paperwork on them. These engines had little value at that time, because there were those who were convinced that they would not fit in a Sea Fury cowl. I designed a motormount, and "mocked up" our Sea Fury with one of our engines, complete with a prop hub, and put the Sea Fury cowl on. I sent photos to "interested parties", built several engine mounts, had spinners and backplates made of carbon fiber, and the rest is history.

Larry

[kiwiracefan]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

I did a little more research and there seems to only be 3 known survivors, and none are in Hungary. However I know what I saw and that was about 12 years ago. Hopefully it's been moved to a place where it's not rotting away!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4

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the TU-4 in its own right is a rare beast... but there was somewhere in the region of 15,000 powerplants with a heap being sent to china for their version of the TU-4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shvetsov_ASh-73

But with a little work im sure even the Ash82 could be hot-rodded to make a bit of power for a racing application

[Race 29]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Kiwi, you have to be right on that. even with only three airframes left accounted for out of 847 built, there's got to be some excess motors out there. China had a few airframes and they have a history of copying good stuff!

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