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  • #16
    Re: Griffons and Allisons

    From everything I've ever read (much of which has been right here and on the other forum), the biggest problem with the Allison is the blower. Race power comes from boost, and Merlins can make far more boost than the Allison. As built, most Allison 1710s had a low-boost single-speed single-stage supercharger since the high-altitude aircraft that used it were intended to be turbocharged, with the turbo force-feeding the blower and doing most of the work at altitude (P-38). The fact that enough turbos weren't available for all the Allison aircraft types was a real problem, and seriously hurt the use of the Aircobra, Kingcobra, and P-40. The Merlin was never turbocharged, instead it had a far more advanced 2-speed 2-stage (in the applications we're all familiar with) mechanical blower. A real work of art capable of rod-bending boost levels. The weak spot for racing in the Merlin is the rods, and grafting Allison rods into it has been an effective solution (WAAAAYYY easier said than done, by the way).

    Basically, the whole engine revolves around the blower, and its easier to stick selected Allison innards into a Merlin than it would be to put a Merlin-class blower on an Allison.

    Griffon- its BOTH the prop and blower that are a problem for racing. The common Griffon is the Shackleton version which has a low-boost blower and the contra-prop with relatively blade primitive airfoils. Shackletons were made for low-altitude patrolling- no need for high boost or for advanced props. The higher-boost blower and single-prop gearcase for a Griffon are unspeakably rare since so few fighters were built with Griffon power. And even with the single prop, your choices are limited since the dang thing turns the "wrong" way. Is there much choice besides the 5-blade Rotol???

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    • #17
      Re: Griffons and Allisons

      Thank you for the reponses everyone thats cool. Well this answered alot of my questions which is now going to lead me where I am going with this you see I had a vision. Now I know the plane isn't mine and it isn't my check book but from what I was gathering this whole Griffon contra rotator may be in a matter of speaking not the way to go, remember I am not an expert and I am going by hear say, so when I was at PRS I coudn't help but notice that the carb intake on PMs cowl is at the top just like the P 51 A which we all know is Allison powered well the light bulb went off in my head "hey if this Griffon causes to many problems he could go Allison with little or no cowling mods imagine that!" But like I said its not my plane and it is cool to see a Griffon contra rotator out there, and also you have the limitations of the Allison that were pointed out earlier. Any way these were just some thoughts I had cant wait for the responses on this one!

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      • #18
        Re: Griffons and Allisons

        another quick question.
        If the blower on a merlin was removed, (to eliminate the huge amount of HP needed to operate it at high MP) could a turbo charger replace it and operate off the exhaust gasses. I understand that a header system would need to be built. But wouldnt that free up a $hit load of power?

        Thanks in advance.

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        • #19
          Re: Griffons and Allisons

          Originally posted by Bob View Post
          another quick question.
          If the blower on a merlin was removed, (to eliminate the huge amount of HP needed to operate it at high MP) could a turbo charger replace it and operate off the exhaust gasses. I understand that a header system would need to be built. But wouldnt that free up a $hit load of power?

          Thanks in advance.
          Once again, Sparrow could probably chime in here, but...from the boat racing side of the house, I know of at least two teams that have attempted to turbocharge the Merlin, and for whatever reason it just does not work the way it does on the Allison.

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          • #20
            Re: Griffons and Allisons

            Originally posted by MARK SHANE View Post
            Thank you for the reponses everyone thats cool. Well this answered alot of my questions which is now going to lead me where I am going with this you see I had a vision. Now I know the plane isn't mine and it isn't my check book but from what I was gathering this whole Griffon contra rotator may be in a matter of speaking not the way to go, remember I am not an expert and I am going by hear say, so when I was at PRS I coudn't help but notice that the carb intake on PMs cowl is at the top just like the P 51 A which we all know is Allison powered well the light bulb went off in my head "hey if this Griffon causes to many problems he could go Allison with little or no cowling mods imagine that!" But like I said its not my plane and it is cool to see a Griffon contra rotator out there, and also you have the limitations of the Allison that were pointed out earlier. Any way these were just some thoughts I had cant wait for the responses on this one!
            The reason that the three Griffon Mustangs have had the carb intakes on the top of the cowling instead of on the bottom is merely due to the size of the engine itself relative to the engine mounts and firewall on the Mustang. If you turn the blower upside down it gives you more room at the bottom--because remember, the Mustang firewall slants forward the lower it goes, and mounted 'normally', the intake duct and carb on a Merlin and Griffon sticks out behind at the bottom. If you turn it upside down and make a 'downdraft' intake out of it, it just fits better. It's the same reason Tsunami and Vendetta did it.

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            • #21
              Re: Griffons and Allisons

              the other thing is that the Griffons were originally fuel injected and at the time the RB-51 was built there were no shops in the U.S. that could service them so from what i have read it was Pete Law and Dave Z who came up with the idea to use a PR58 carb from an R2800 that they mounted upside down so it rested against the firewall after moving the firewall back a half foot or so and that created the downdraft situation. I think the MA II guys also found that with the NACA scoop at the intake it gave extra " of MP when going downhill. and that with the longer run from where the air turned the corner to the carb it went into the carb alot smoother.
              Im just a reader, and hopefully one of the engine builders who frequent could help out if i got things wrong
              race fan, photographer with more cameras than a camera store

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              • #22
                Re: Griffons and Allisons

                The conversion of a 51D to allison was done back in the 70's by Tony D'something (sorry, I don't remember the spelling and can't seem to find any info on the RARA site anymore), there were pics in Air Classics. The plane was in a hanger at Stead last year with a Merlin back on it. I had heard way back that performance was not as desired but of course no turbo.
                I'm no aero engineer but to me it would seem a step back in a mustang.
                Leo Smiley - Graphics and Fine Arts
                airplanenutleo@gmail.com
                thetreasuredpeacock.etsy.com

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                • #23
                  Re: Griffons and Allisons

                  Originally posted by Leo View Post
                  The conversion of a 51D to allison was done back in the 70's by Tony D'something (sorry, I don't remember the spelling and can't seem to find any info on the RARA site anymore), there were pics in Air Classics. The plane was in a hanger at Stead last year with a Merlin back on it. I had heard way back that performance was not as desired but of course no turbo.
                  I'm no aero engineer but to me it would seem a step back in a mustang.
                  Leo, the guy's name was Tony D'Allesandris. The modification program actually had some money and some knowledge base behind it. Harry Volpe, who was the engine guru on the Harrah's Tahoe Miss/Harrah's Club unlimited hydroplane--at the time, widely acknowledged as the ultimate Allison-powered boat--as well as the guy responsible for 'upgrading' the systems on the Miss Madison hydroplane in 1971 that helped it with the Gold Cup, was the lead mechanic for Tony. It was a full-blown 'racing' Allison with lots of tricks. I've got several photos of them working on and testing the plane in the spring/summer of 1973. Unfortunately, there were a lot of teething problems, and ultimately if I remember right they blew the engine and Tony lost interest.

                  Now...here's the tricky part. The plane you saw in the hanger at Reno last year was NOT the same airplane. Tonly had two Mustangs that had similar--but not identical--paintjobs. The plane that was modified with the Allison was actually raced by Bill & Erin Rheinschild , and Matt Jackson as "No Business" and "Miss Fit" back in the late 80's and early '90's. I believe the airframe is now with Jeff Clyman back in New Jersey painted as "Shangri-La".

                  The plane in the hanger was the 'other' Mustang...and it has been sitting in a hanger in Carson City (I think) for many, many years and is hardly ever flown, and Tony doesn't want it flown. Tony's son was there talking about it last year, but to be honest he really has no clue what he's talking about. Among other things he tried to tell me that the airframe that was modified with the Allison ended up as "Jeannie" and won Reno twice. Nice try, but "Jeannie" was flying as "Miss Candace" during that time period. I just nodded my head and smiled and walked away.


                  Oooh, found a link to a picture from my buddy Bill Larkins:

                  The safest and most inclusive global community of photography enthusiasts. The best place for inspiration, connection, and sharing!
                  Last edited by Big_Jim; 06-29-2011, 08:03 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Griffons and Allisons

                    Thanks for the info!
                    Always glad to learn more.
                    Leo Smiley - Graphics and Fine Arts
                    airplanenutleo@gmail.com
                    thetreasuredpeacock.etsy.com

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                    • #25
                      Re: Griffons and Allisons

                      Thank you Big Jim, Kiwi, and Leo for the info this is stuff I want to ask the teams every year but they always look busy so I don't pester them. I checked out that photo Big Jim interesting no carb intake on top of cowling but I see one where the wing meets the fuselage. I don't think I have seen that before at least on a Mustang other than Stiletto but those were radiator and oil cooler inlets and they were further out on the wings. Its amazing to see some of the different ideas these teams would try back in the day! Thank you again Big Jim I am learning alot.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Griffons and Allisons

                        Originally posted by MARK SHANE View Post
                        Thank you Big Jim, Kiwi, and Leo for the info this is stuff I want to ask the teams every year but they always look busy so I don't pester them. I checked out that photo Big Jim interesting no carb intake on top of cowling but I see one where the wing meets the fuselage. I don't think I have seen that before at least on a Mustang other than Stiletto but those were radiator and oil cooler inlets and they were further out on the wings. Its amazing to see some of the different ideas these teams would try back in the day! Thank you again Big Jim I am learning alot.
                        Yes, one of the modifications that Volpi made was to relocate the intakes to the wingroots and they both fed into the carb.

                        Also of note, the collector tube for the exhaust stack. Very common amongst the Unlimited Hydroplanes to prevent backpressure and sucking exhaust back in through the valves...but the only other air racer to use this was Sandberg's "Tipsy Miss".

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                        • #27
                          Re: Griffons and Allisons

                          Is the wing on that Allison powered stang shorter than the standard clip for racers? Looks pretty short to me.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Griffons and Allisons

                            Originally posted by Big_Jim View Post
                            Yes, one of the modifications that Volpi made was to relocate the intakes to the wingroots and they both fed into the carb.

                            Also of note, the collector tube for the exhaust stack. Very common amongst the Unlimited Hydroplanes to prevent backpressure and sucking exhaust back in through the valves...but the only other air racer to use this was Sandberg's "Tipsy Miss".
                            I thought I noticed somthing else different thats cool, yeah Big Jim I was wondering if that is a issue with these aircraft because of the fact the exhaust pipes are so short, I know backpressure can reak havoc on a car engine I imagine its the same with these bad boys.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Griffons and Allisons

                              OK. May be a stupid note, but I gotta say something.

                              I had to do a double take on that picture. Initially looked like someone put a Chevrolet tailgate on a Ford truck. Third look cleared the issue.

                              See!
                              Told you it was stupid........

                              Oh yea, great nostalgic picture. Don't recall seeing that exhaust configuration. Yet another unique sound again.

                              TJ

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                              • #30
                                Re: Griffons and Allisons

                                One recurrent theme is that Merlins and Griffons are "fuel injected." That is not true in the injection form of the word. They have various fuel pump configurations, however the fuel is "injected" into the eye of the supercharger through discharge nozzles. Basically it is a 1940's version of throttle body fuel injection. The "carburetor" is an automatic metering device that has an external fuel line that feeds the fuel directly into the blower through the nozzle.


                                In the boats when they were running Griffons, they were using PR 58 "carburators" on them and they found that the carb was acting as a choke by limiting airflow into the engines as a sizing factor of the air inlets of the carb itself. The PR 58's went away and they put PR 100's on them and it was a whole different animal with all kinds of air for the air compressor. An engine is basically in simple terms an air compressor, which if it's starved for air it won't work up to its full potential.

                                The exhaust stacks, particularly on Merlins in Mustangs had a great deal of research and developement put into them. They aren't just a random size and shape. They serve a purpose and were developed to produce the greatest amount of thrust out of them as possible. A lot of the "popping" you hear when a Merlin is idling comes from the fact that cool air is being sucked back into hot exhaust valves. There are many more factors than that, however this is one cause of a Merlin barking at idle, in particular when it is hot just after landing.

                                Sparrow

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