Ghost photo w/out trimtab

[tasjas]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I have a picture of the ghost from the fence line off of placerville rd where the trim tab is starting to come off maybe it could be use to the faa or rara or ntsb don't know where to send it

[wolfee]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Give it to RARA... They will see that it gets to the right people.

[Desertdawg]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Heres the link to the 1998 Voodoo Trim incident.

http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html

Read the caption to photo 5.

We are still at a loss from this tragedy.

Sincere condolences to all the affective families from the Reisel family of Reno.

[Florian]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I sent my pictures directly to the NTSB, they are responsible for the investigation and they currently collect information material. This is the Mail address: terry.williams@ntsb.gov

Florian

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I am a mechanic. I do aviation ground equipment. I am astonished that a little bitty trim tab would cause such a horrendous accident. I'm hearing it could.
Aircraft mechanics please chime in.

As speed increases in flight, the nose has to be trimmed down. On the race course, there is a huge amount of nose down trim due to the speed.

When the trim tab breaks and can no longer trim off the aerodynamic forces, there is suddenly a abrupt amount of nose-up pitching moment. That abrupt and intense G does very bad things to airplanes and people.

I agree with other assessments posted earlier that believe the intense G may have caused a G-induced loss of consciousness.

If you watch the video taken from the east end of the pits, the Ghost pulls up into a high G roll. There's no erratic maneuvering associated with it -- it is a constant G, constant roll flight path until the airplane impacts the ground.

That is completely consistent with an incapacitated pilot and an airplane with a lot of nose up trim.

It wasn't Jimmy's fault in any way.

[Reever]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

From what is available from the videos, photos and eyewitnesses, can anyone estimate how many G's?

Steve

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I can't begin to guess, but Bob Hannah's ride pulled over 10 g's, knocking him out for a bit.

Eight g's can put you under if you don't do anything to counter it, like tightening one's neck muscles to keep some blood up in the brain.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I can't begin to guess, but Bob Hannah's ride pulled over 10 g's, knocking him out for a bit.

Eight g's can put you under if you don't do anything to counter it, like tightening one's neck muscles to keep some blood up in the brain.

The key to G tolerance is actually using major muscle groups to control blood flow downward away from the brain.

It's the abs, glutes, and leg muscles that have the biggest "reserves" of places for blood to go. Those are the ones that have to be tightened to increase upper body blood pressure. More importantly, those muscle groups are lower than the heart, so it helps increase the blood pressure on the line between the heart and the head.

If you increase muscle tensing in the upper body (arms, chest, neck -- anything that is anatomically above the level of the heart), you actually do more damage than you do good as it forces blood down away from the brain instead of toward it.

I an not exactly an in-shape person -- 6'2" and about 200# -- and my resting G tolerance (without any AGSM or G-suit) is in the neighborhood of 5G. Above 5, I start to lose visual acuity. A G-suit adds only about 1 extra G to a person's tolerance (it only squeezes the thighs and calves). With an AGSM, I have tolerated sustained 8+G for a minute or two.

The problem here, though, is that being able to tolerate G takes preemptive action: I have to tighten my muscles and take a deep breath BEFORE the onset of G in order to tolerate it. If you wait until after G onset to start G straining, it's usually difficult to impossible to "get back on top". This is, in fact, exactly how many GLOC incidents occur.

So, the issue with this particular incident is that the G would have been a rapid onset, and likely just as Jimmy would have been coming "off" his G strain for the turn around pylon 8 (it looked like he was just starting to get out of the left bank on the video I saw) when a sudden, rapid onset of G occurred.

It is tough to speculate on how many G. If he was going in the high 400s, abrupt onset could have generated 7 or more G -- maybe up into the 10s or 12s.

Either way, just like what happened to Hurricane Hannah, the rapid onset would have likely caught the pilot physically unprepared to handle it.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Hmmm. I always heard that tightening your neck muscles trapped blood in the brain, instead of letting it flow downward towards the feet from the pull of gee's and robbing the brain of oxygen.

But as someone who has experienced it personally (YOU namely) and has been through the training, I bow to your expertise, Randy. Thanks for that very informative text.

[DWYER]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

As speed increases in flight, the nose has to be trimmed down. On the race course, there is a huge amount of nose down trim due to the speed.

When the trim tab breaks and can no longer trim off the aerodynamic forces, there is suddenly a abrupt amount of nose-up pitching moment. That abrupt and intense G does very bad things to airplanes and people.

I agree with other assessments posted earlier that believe the intense G may have caused a G-induced loss of consciousness.

If you watch the video taken from the east end of the pits, the Ghost pulls up into a high G roll. There's no erratic maneuvering associated with it -- it is a constant G, constant roll flight path until the airplane impacts the ground.

That is completely consistent with an incapacitated pilot and an airplane with a lot of nose up trim.

It wasn't Jimmy's fault in any way.

This helps answer one of my big questions. However, I have a few questions/comments.

From a video that was on youtube from the fenceline, you can see a 45-90 degree aileron roll as it was headed towards us. I can't recall anything after the nose cone was pointed straight at us. Brain kinda shut down at that point. Was this pilot input or just the aircraft flying itself?

Why was the tail wheel deployed?

Can't get the sound out of my head. I feel so sorry.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

This helps answer one of my big questions. However, I have a few questions/comments.

From a video that was on youtube from the fenceline, you can see a 45-90 degree aileron roll as it was headed towards us. I can't recall anything after the nose cone was pointed straight at us. Brain kinda shut down at that point. Was this pilot input or just the aircraft flying itself?

Why was the tail wheel deployed?

Can't get the sound out of my head. I feel so sorry.

It's still unofficial speculation based on known evidence, but in my post on page 2 of this thread I already commented on the tail wheel probably being forced down by the high-G pull-up, and others have done so too before me.

When Jimmy passed out from these forces and fell forward towards the instrument panel (as seen in my enhanced cockpit image), he may have inadvertently applied some right stick, although my true belief is that propeller torque rolled the plane to the right as it's speed dropped in the steep climb.

Remember that power was never cut back the entire time, so prop torque forces would be high, and the wings and ailerons lose authority as speeds reduce.

[mailman77327]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Saw on the Houston news this am that the focus has changed from the pilot to a mechanical failure... the media has run amuck with Mr Leeward about his age and I am glad to see some truth come out. I would take his experience over mine everytime.

[John H]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

It's still unofficial speculation based on known evidence, but in my post on page 2 of this thread I already commented on the tail wheel probably being forced down by the high-G pull-up, and others have done so too before me.

When Jimmy passed out from these forces and fell forward towards the instrument panel (as seen in my enhanced cockpit image), he may have inadvertently applied some right stick, although my true belief is that propeller torque rolled the plane to the right as it's speed dropped in the steep climb.

Remember that power was never cut back the entire time, so prop torque forces would be high, and the wings and ailerons lose authority as speeds reduce.

wow you have footage that shows that???? amazing. Is it here somewhere? The media stupidity was running amock again, including using that idiotic word "stunt" pilot.

[RarebearFan77]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

The roll effect could have also been created with the loss of trim tab on left elevator.

[John H]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Quote: " From a video that was on youtube from the fenceline,"

Where, the only thing I see is grandstand videos. Can you link please?