Ghost photo w/out trimtab

[De Camara]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

NTSB has reported GG had telemetry and video onboard. All shipped to DC for analysis.

Figured all Gold class ran systems like that.


Doc

[supercub]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Like several of you, I've looked at several of the pictures and videos. The one picture of GG with the tailwheel out and no visible pilot looks a little questionable......looks a little unreal. I'm not saying it is, just that I have questions........that being said, I've seen others photos, and the helmet appears to be up against the panel or isn't visible. I looked at a photo of Jimmy taxing out, and the forward portion of the helmet is about even with the seam between the canopy and windshield also it appears his chin is about even with the bottom of the canopy. I would assume that in this position his shoulder straps would be tight which would limit his upper body from moving forward and down minimally.
So I'm wondering, how did his head and upper torso move so far forward as to be up against the panel and below the visible portion of the canopy. If you sit in a normal pilot position and move your head forward as much as possible, your head moves forward several inches, but vertically/down, it only moves a couple of inches. Pure speculation, but could the "g" forces have been so great that +the shoulder harness broke....doubtful. Could his neck have broke......maybe, or perhaps the harness was snapped, but not locked allowing it to come undone.....who knows. I happened to witness the whole thing, from the pitch up to the ensuing crash. In my mind, the ptich up didn't look that violent. I actually thought he was pulling up because of a problem (mayday, no I didn't hear a mayday). As everyone knows, eye witnesses are notorious for inacuraccies, and I count myself in this group.
With this being said, I can't type something on here without saying, my prayers and thoughts are with the victims and survivors and their families. God Bless everyone involved.
Brian

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

NTSB has reported GG had telemetry and video onboard. All shipped to DC for analysis.

You have to put the pitch up in a 450 mph context. That was a violent pitch up.

Spacegrrrl

[tjyak50]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Perhaps the seat assembly collapsed and took some mechanisms with it on the first pitchup. Perhaps one of them allowed the tailwheel to unlock and extend.

The initial pitch was right in front of me. My first thought was that there was some accelerated stall in the first second of pitch. Something I have observed hundreds of times flying uncooperative formation acro.

Perhaps I am way off base. But I appreciate having this forum to discuss.

Tj

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I don't know what kind of shoulder straps were in GG, but every high performance airplane I've flown has had shoulder straps connected to an inertial reel that could also be manually locked.

You fly around with the straps unlocked, which allows you to lean forward and operate switches and perform other cockpit tasks. If you know you are going to be decelerating aggressively on landing (brake problem, or catching a runway cable arrestment), then you can manually lock the harness.

The inertial reel locks when decelerating Gs (-X axis deceleration) occur. It is exactly the same as how the inertial reel in a car seat bely works. The reel does nothing under Z axis G.

Flying around with the shoulder harness manually locked isn't done, since it restricts cockpit mobility, possibly to the extent of prohibiting normal actuation of cockpit controls or being able to look around outside. Many times I've had the inertial reel inadvertently lock in various aircraft, and I've had to physically unhook the shoulder straps so I could flip switches and whatnot.

Bottom line: shoulder straps would not keep a pilot upright under extreme G.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Something I have observed hundreds of times flying uncooperative formation acro.

Dogfighting?

Accelerated stalls are a useful part of slow speed dogfighting, ergo in a flat scissors, but are not generally an effective tactic used in any other part of 1 v 1 maneuvering.

[tjyak50]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

not generally an effective tactic used in any other part of 1 v 1 maneuvering.

Not effective at all, but it happens (usually as part of getting waxed).

Didn't consider the reel type seatbelt.

[InetGuy]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

xxxxx

[IcePaq]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Does anybody have a play-by-play of the race heat......accident does not need to be included.

sounds like an epic race was brewing.

[johnnyrace]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Okay...I will be posting a couple photos as soon as I get home as well as send them to the NTSB. They are of GG taken from our position that show very obvious wrinkles in the rear fuselage like Florian posted as well as the trim tab that has been shown missing visible in a noticably though slight upward position as she passed by us just before entering the final turn seconds before the incident...Not sure if they are gonna mean anything, but they might.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

They are of GG taken from our position that show very obvious wrinkles in the rear fuselage like Florian posted

I'm sure the final NTSB descriptive analysis will be the authority on this but I'll repeat what someone else said. The wrinkles are very common on the racers, they are the skin "oil canning" from aerodynamic pressures. NOT, particularly, in this case, indication of a structural flexing, or imminent failure... I'm actually amazed the airplane was essentially intact after the most abrupt pull up I've ever seen.

[Fence Sence]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Jimmy was working the wind off of the 7,8,9 complex like I've never seen. I would have liked to see an actual top speed across the start/finish. When he passed the Bear, I thought he had at least 30 knots on him. He was was running nearly perfectly straight through the VOS and then throwing the Ghost 90 degrees and getting a huge push from wind. Not sure what kind of extra stresses this was exerting on the air frame but, it really looked like it was working beyond what I had ever seen a Mustang do. Maybe its nothing, maybe its something.

...and the there is the big "POP" right before pitch up. ???

[johnnyrace]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I'm sure the final NTSB descriptive analysis will be the authority on this but I'll repeat what someone else said. The wrinkles are very common on the racers, they are the skin "oil canning" from aerodynamic pressures. NOT, particularly, in this case, indication of a structural flexing, or imminent failure... I'm actually amazed the airplane was essentially intact after the most abrupt pull up I've ever seen.

Thanks Wayne...I kinda figured maybe the fuselage wrinkles might be normal, but wanted to post a few pics just in case anything was unusual as these are taken from a different position on the race course just prior...The photos of Strega and VooDoo taken in the exact location do not show the fuselage wrinkles or tab position as GG does, but of course they are different aircraft so I guess that makes it a moot point...Back to the GG pics...It seems apparent, when closely analyzed in these photos that the trim tab that eventually was shown to depart is up a bit while the other side is not...I do not know if this is normal , but it seems unusual to me...The pics are not the best, but the upward angle of the tab can certainly be seen.

Just wanted to make sure I don't disregard something I have in photographs that may be of help.

[Tomcatter]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Thanks Wayne...I kinda figured maybe the fuselage wrinkles might be normal, but wanted to post a few pics just in case anything was unusual as these are taken from a different position on the race course just prior...The photos of Strega and VooDoo taken in the exact location do not show the fuselage wrinkles or tab position as GG does, but of course they are different aircraft so I guess that makes it a moot point...Back to the GG pics...It seems apparent, when closely analyzed in these photos that the trim tab that eventually was shown to depart is up a bit while the other side is not...I do not know if this is normal , but it seems unusual to me...The pics are not the best, but the upward angle of the tab can certainly be seen.

Just wanted to make sure I don't disregard something I have in photographs that may be of help.

Ghost was set up such that ONLY the left stab had a moving trim tab.

Voodoo does use trim, just not to the extent needed by 177

Strega has had work done that addresses the issue and the 'x' in her number is connected to that.

[wolfee]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Thank you Johnny....

Wolfee