Ghost photo w/out trimtab

[Tomcatter]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Randy is correct wrt sets harness.

In ACM
If you can't move, you can't see.
If you can't see, you're dead

I, and every other naval aviator I know, wouldngonsomfar as to lean slightly fwd before locking the belts before a trap. You want to be able to move around to address any number od issues, ton include reaching that very important yellow/black handle if needed.

For two good examples, go watch some of the ACM footage in TopGun or the footage of Skip/Will during the Unlimteds.

All of this said, a belt can only do so much. The g's that hit 177 were EXTREME and instantaneous (and yes that is why the tailwheel lock popped) Much like when Buckwheat went lights out in Voodoo, or for another example from a similar sport, when Dale hit the wall at Daytona.

Bottom-line, Jimmy was out from the moment the tab departed and pinned tight against the panel.

[Tomcatter]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Randy is correct wrt seat harness.

In ACM
If you can't move, you can't see.
If you can't see, you're dead
Same story at Reno

I, and every other naval aviator I know, would go so far as to lean slightly fwd before locking the belts before a trap. You want to be able to move around to address any number of issues, to include reaching that very important yellow/black handle if needed.

For two good examples, go watch some of the ACM footage in TopGun or the footage of Skip/Will during the Unlimteds.

All of this said, a belt can only do so much. The g's that hit 177 were EXTREME and instantaneous (and yes that is why the tailwheel lock popped) Much like when Buckwheat went lights out in Voodoo, or for another example from a similar sport, when Dale hit the wall at Daytona.

Bottom-line, Jimmy was out from the moment the tab departed and pinned tight against the panel.

[De Camara]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Based on those last pics of "fuse" stress...... (post #91 above)

The stab trim tabs had seemingly purposely induced left roll into the stab

That one pic shows a slightly low left aileron that I saw.

Once the trim tab sheared, right roll followed.....

But that massive split ess pull.......

If I hadn't seen the you tube video(s) of the pull up and split ess, I'd have never bought a story/descriptive of it based on the power setting, and sheer speed in the flight path.

Especially the shorter span/squares (inches) of the wing area.
How could it NOT high speed stall a laminar airfoil in that massive up (down turn).....




Doc

[InetGuy]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Again, I believe we saw oscillations before the vertical pull, and if other stories of pilot in that kind of environment is true ( X2/Yaeger ) he might have been knocked unconscious before the pull.

[Florian]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Thanks for sharing Johnny. The angle of the trim tab looks similar to the condition on my photos (slightly angled up) but this was probably the high speed setting.

At some of my pictures from friday there is gap visible between the front (fixed) canopy and the canopy part which can be rotated to open it. This issue is only small in size but it may have an influence on the pressure in the fuselage and especially pressure sensitive systems (fluids and gasses) which are installed in the fuselage.

Florian

[De Camara]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Thanks for sharing Johnny. The angle of the trim tab looks similar to the condition on my photos (slightly angled up) but this was probably the high speed setting.

At some of my pictures from friday there is gap visible between the front (fixed) canopy and the canopy part which can be rotated to open it. This issue is only small in size but it may have an influence on the pressure in the fuselage and especially pressure sensitive systems (fluids and gasses) which are installed in the fuselage.

Florian

Gyroscopic effects as well as Gyroscopic precession has alot to do with trim choices, as well as stresses.

We're finding many little clues that this and these birds "feel/show" while in the "saddle".


Incredible shot on the canopy there Florian



Doc

[De Camara]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Saw Rich Palmer's (son) found a couple of pics.
(borrowed from WIX) making sure I clarify my reference......



One pic shows the departure of the trim tab portion.....

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f7/reno-air-race-crash-2011-a-1265812/index2.html

Doc

[mgbf4u]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I spoke with Buckwheat's better half last night, both are having problems sleeping..

He has invaluable insight into this, since he may well be the only person who has survived a similar (pretty much exactly) the same problem.

I await a phone call from Bob, with hopefully, an interview will shed light on what happened yesterday.

ATTA BOY WAYNE
I hope that works out. I have that vision in my head of the Ghost when it went inverted.

[First time Juke]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f7/reno-air-race-crash-2011-a-1265812/index2.html

This also shows how fast the plane rolled...and if I am not mistaken the left elevator is deflected more than right....is it an illusion ?

I have attented many airshowns and never saw a plane go down...but getting an AC into the boxes must really cause gray hair to many air race viewers at the site.

The VooDoo and GG trim tab issue has to be dealt with ...otherwise there cannot be Mustangs in the next race.

[SLCPilot]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Bottom-line, Jimmy was out from the moment the tab departed and pinned tight against the panel.

Lacking video of the "over banking" and pitch excursions, this is not the way my friend's saw it. The tab remained attatched until the plane was arcing up over the crowd. They have a picture not in the public domain yet (but off to the NTSB) that shows JL's helmet forward and right (against the panel?) and the tab still attatched.

In the picture there is some light visible in half of the inboard hinge gap between the left elevator tab and the elevator itself.

SLCPilot

[WVRACEFAN]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Not sure if this has been posted here, but there's a video of landing gear test done on GG, not sure if done on Friday or not, but after taxing out, Jimmy returns and seemingly directs a crew member to look at the left horizontal stabilizer.

Look at about 4:20.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58cxPx9QJWw&feature=player_detailpage

[GeeBeeZ1931]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Air,

Good post. I also think a telling sign that there was no control of the plane is that it came in with no changes to the throttle. He came in at the same RPM he left the course with...screaming! There is a link on the RGJ site of a recording (not video) of the plane coming in and you can hear what I am talking about.

And right now that sound is what has been haunting me all night and all day today. I keep hearing it.

I have to disagree strongly! Also don't forget the doppler effect on sound.
I was in the stands when it looked like WE were in the bulls eye. I distinctly saw what I consider a heroic last second effort and small change in course out toward the ramp just before hitting the stands. I believe Jimmy was a hero for even that small change that saved possibly hundreds in the stands friday. My eyes were glued to him from the second he pulled up and I know it was not my imagination. I saw the whole horrible thing as well as the impact right in front of me and I'll NEVER forget it.

[GeeBeeZ1931]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

SLCpilot, your discription is pretty much how I remember seeing it from the stands on the West end of the pits.



This is what I was seeing as turbulence from the plane(s) ahead.



I dont remember seeing the series of quick pitch excursions at wings level. As I remember it, the plane rolled left (infield), then right (pits) at the same time as the pitch excursions. then wings level with hard pitch up at almost the same time.

Thanks for the info

wolfee

As I was watching him come around the course very closely and right after going level it was clear to me that there were several very obvious jerky and NOT normal movements of the aircraft. I knew immediately this was not normal for any unlimited to move in that abrupt and uncoordinated manner.

[Tomcatter]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

Lacking video of the "over banking" and pitch excursions, this is not the way my friend's saw it. The tab remained attatched until the plane was arcing up over the crowd. They have a picture not in the public domain yet (but off to the NTSB) that shows JL's helmet forward and right (against the panel?) and the tab still attatched.

In the picture there is some light visible in half of the inboard hinge gap between the left elevator tab and the elevator itself.

SLCPilot

Your last identifies the situation correctly. May are assuming the tab just 'blew off'. Several images show that it 'peeled' away. That said...

I will clarify my comment to "Jimmy was out from the moment the tab BEGAN to depart and the plane pitched up"

[doubleup]

Re: Ghost photo w/out trimtab

I have to disagree strongly! Also don't forget the doppler effect on sound.
I was in the stands when it looked like WE were in the bulls eye. I distinctly saw what I consider a heroic last second effort and small change in course out toward the ramp just before hitting the stands. I believe Jimmy was a hero for even that small change that saved possibly hundreds in the stands friday. My eyes were glued to him from the second he pulled up and I know it was not my imagination. I saw the whole horrible thing as well as the impact right in front of me and I'll NEVER forget it.

Everyone has there own view/ opinion of what happened. All I know is that there was no change in throttle from the time he left the course. Much like many other people I thought he was headed right for our group in the box seats as well and am very lucky to have walked away with a few cuts and nothing else.