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**bkmeo** · 09-19-2011, 11:04 PM

Re: Frustration

I have had 30 friends track me down about this ... some fans not present this year and most just know I never miss the races. I explain that on a 70 second course the problem with 177 occurred during the worst 7-8 second window possible. What is the number of heats and races since 1964 at Reno, Mojave, Miami, Kansas City, Hamilton and Phoenix etc without a spectator fatality ??? Lowell, let us know ...

**CarolinaChuck** · 09-19-2011, 11:25 PM

Re: Frustration

Look ya all- in 1955 a single accident at Le Mans 83 spectators were killed in auto racing, yet auto racing still goes on today. I know- beat me up and flame me for starting a post right after the crash "The day the music died." Sorrow was immediately overtaken with anger- than regret: we must be resolute.

CC

**Dago Dog** · 09-19-2011, 11:51 PM

Re: Frustration

Zombies snarl until dealt with appropriately!

When we are done mourning, we can perform the necessary double tap and move forward.

The noise will die down quickly, as long as we react with the truth, and with resolve.

Zombies need drama (fresh meat) in order to live on. Lets not give them any more.

(now everyone should know who and what a zombie is right??)

**RAD2LTR** · 09-19-2011, 11:51 PM

Re: Frustration

I've had a few people tell me the races should be canceled. I then bring up the '55 LeMans race, and then mention just how safe the air races really are. To go 47 years without so much as a spectator injury just proves the point. I cant think of another sport that has that sort of track record. (I don't know, perhaps shuffle board? Curling? ) Red Bull really hasn't done anything for the image of real air racing. What they do is is stunt flying. There is no stunt flying here.

I've followed the Reno Air races since I was about 8 or so (what ever the minimum age to get into the pits was back in the '80s) I was finally able to go back last year with a friend who had never gone. He was so blown away by it that we started planning for this year as we drove home. His first thought was that it was going to be like the Red Bull air races, after seeing it first hand he was speechless. He couldn't believe what he was seeing and was absolutely thrilled to be there. If more people could witness what actually happens either on TV (only if its good coverage) or in person, there wouldn't be this misconception of it being a bunch of crazy people with more $ than sense flying stunts in 65 year old airplanes.

I'm frustrated as well. All we can do is try to teach those who will listen.

Will

**Exhaustgases** · 09-19-2011, 11:56 PM

Re: Frustration

The night I heard about the crash on the news, I was saddened by the loss of good people, and ones hurt. And the very first thought was the fear that future air racing would be in jeopardy. I agree with all you.

If air racing or any form of motor sports is eliminated because of events like friday. Then if there is ever another airliner crash any place then there should be no more air travel.

Air racing creates jobs doesn't it? Same with restoration and overhaul of warbirds.

**Dago Dog** · 09-19-2011, 11:57 PM

Re: Frustration

Originally posted by RAD2LTR View Post

I'm frustrated as well. All we can do is try to teach those who will listen.

Will

+1

**AAFO_WSagar** · 09-20-2011, 12:14 AM

Re: Frustration

Originally posted by RAD2LTR View Post

I'm frustrated as well. All we can do is try to teach those who will listen.

Well said... All of this suddenly came to me a bit ago (I've mentioned it in a couple other posts just now) this should become our mission, let those know, who are willing to listen, what this great sport is about.

**GregS** · 09-20-2011, 07:10 PM

Re: Frustration

I was curious last nite about any A/D's on P-51's. If you google....'n the WIKIPEDIA..( where I never go )...you can find oddles of unclassified original memos from the Dept of the Army,etc. I "gleaned" this;

1.) B,C,& D models had elevator/tab problems. Corrective actions are noted. Okay.

2.) The airframe had VNE in a dive ( A/C don't know different atitude I'm guessing ) of 505MPH!!!!. Advice was given if a pilot "found himself exceeding the speed by 30-40 MPH "....it was to pull out slowly.

Hmmm.Known traits of the most sucessful fighter built.

The notes I saw...were dated 1944. This was an accident.

GregS

**mgbf4u** · 09-20-2011, 08:18 PM

Re: Frustration

GregS:

What's an AD?

**RBriscoe** · 09-20-2011, 08:44 PM

Re: Frustration

You would have to look much deeper into the VNE matter to draw any conclusion. For example, the VNE for a split tail Bonanza carries a risk of structural failure of the tail structure. Others might involve control issues, e.g. MiG-15 and early model F-86. The P/F-80 & T-33 had aileron flutter issues. Some VNEs were the result of encounters with compressibility which was little understood during WW II. In his last years my father who was an engineering test pilot in the Pacific in WW II told me of a terminal velocity dive in a P-47 which was strong enough to withstand the stresses, but had a complete loss of control authority until the increased air density at lower altitude slowed it enough to restore control authority. If the throttle was reduced, it would tuck under catastrophically.

I would like to see what is determined about CG and trim related matters, but we should wait and see what emerges from the NTSB Investigation. I think that there will be a lot of information from a similar incident involving VooDoo Chile which will be evaluated.

**BKB** · 09-20-2011, 08:45 PM

Re: Frustration

"What's an AD?"

"Airworthiness Directive"

Maybe not spelled correctly.

**deepsky** · 09-20-2011, 11:27 PM

Re: Frustration

First, let me say that it takes a lot to get me upset. I was listening to a local radio show this morning. I listened as people called in - call after call - talking out of their asses, about something that they had no clue about. I finally lost my cool after listening to a man claiming that RARA, Jimmys family, the city of Reno, and the insurance companies should be sued because they fly unsafe planes that are modified. Sadly, I lost my cool and called in. I said to much to put it all down here, but the Host thanked me for the information and said he agreed with what I said.
I've got to admit that I feel better after venting.

**Dash** · 09-21-2011, 01:20 AM

Re: Frustration

I'm tired of the media, the lay person, and sadly even supposed race fans talking about the modifications as if we already know that's the problem. Yes we have some photos and video and a lot of people that think they have all the answers. The investigation is far from over and we should let them complete it. I just want to point out a few facts below for those of you who care:

1. The majority of air racing take place further away from the stands than a typical airshow.
2. The speeds, although fast for prop planes are not as fast as many jet demos.
3. Aviation does carry inherent risk, but the FAA do an admirable job of promoting safety, providing regulation, and technical inspections.
4. Reno is one of the only events that plan to never have planes overfly the spectator area.
5. The largest portion of general aviation aircraft is the experimental aircraft sector (laymen typically read danger, but is to be interpreted as FAA inspected and certified kit built aircraft). One aspect of many of the kit built aircraft are builder modifications from the original design. Many think this means that experimental aircraft must be less safe, but accident statistics do not support this assumption!

Aviation is elite by it's very nature and most are simply ignorant. (I mean that intended as the definition sense and not as a slight on anyone). Most of us pilots, mechanics, aero engineers, etc are fine with you asking a "dumb question" and will do our best to explain it, but all the armchair quarterbacking and matter-of-factness based on no fact and all conjecture we do not tend to look favorably on. Remember that most, not all,, but most media and lawyers are going to sensationalize to make a buck. My hat is off to those that are maintaining their professionalism and integrity, when they could simply be making a greasy buck.

**deepsky** · 09-21-2011, 06:28 AM

Re: Frustration

I'm tired of the media, the lay person, and sadly even supposed race fans talking about the modifications as if we already know that's the problem. Yes we have some photos and video and a lot of people that think they have all the answers. The investigation is far from over and we should let them complete it. I just want to point out a few facts below for those of you who care:

I agree. That's why I called the radio show. I tried to explain that these guys aren't just a bunch of rednecks trying to put a V-12 into a volkswagen, yes you know who you are!

They aren't just adding here and cutting there all willy nilly. I was surprised that the host was unaware that they do the research and development that they do. I'm all for people talking about it but they don't seem to understand that these men and women have family and friends who are hurt by all of this speculating.

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