NTSB preliminary report

[RBriscoe]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

These are questions which will be answered in good time by the NTSB with failure analysis of the components involved. There will, no doubt, be an examination of the cockpit layout and a comparison to a number of other aircraft, especially Voodoo because of its prior incident.

It has been speculated, and I emphasize speculated, that the trim tab failure resulted in a differential lift vector (when it unloaded) and a high G roll. None of the eye witnesses, still or video imagery shows the aircrew's head in the last moments of flight which is consistent with what is known about the Voodoo Chile (Voodoo) incident, but we should wait and examine the evidence collected in the investigation. The NTSB has trained and experienced investigators with access to resources capable of extraordinary scientific analysis. Let's let them do their job.

[Jason S.]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

I posted this on Scotty's site but thought I'd post it here as well.

Yeah, after reading many of the stories of how he was flying erratically coming around pylon 8 and tons of other miss information, I finally decided that I'm going to put together and share the footage that I took during the race. My footage doesn't show the impact like the many others that are plastered on the net, but it shows his relatively smooth flight all the way from pylon 5 to just at the point where he lost it and went inverted over our heads on the race trailer. This footage has been submitted to the NTSB and hopefully will be helping them in the investigation. I mean no disrespect to any of the Leeward family and the crew, but I feel this will help end allot of the wrong info that is flying around.
Jason
P.S. I'm just now getting the footage to my computer so it will take awhile to edit and get it posted, so stay tuned.

[T. Adams]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

Thanks, Jason. As my picture has already shown, when he was coming around 8, everything looked good, nothing out of the ordinary.

[degroodtt]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

The NTSB has trained and experienced investigators with access to resources capable of extraordinary scientific analysis. Let's let them do their job.

It is so hard to not do anything. If I had a $1.00 for every time my wife has had to say "just sit on your hands" I could own a P-51. They will do their job and we should not give any fodder to the vultures. We need to heal (at least I do) by talking about the fun things that have, did and will happen in Reno. What this should prove is what happens in Reno gets captured on camera, video, and any other means possible. If you take your pants off do that in Vegas not in Reno.

PS. My wife just read over my shoulder and has approved this message.

[Dash]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

Don't read too much into the sequence of wording in the NTSB prelim. This is essentially a template and it is preliminary. The NTSB can work miracles to recreate how the scenario played out. These people are scientists and as such they do not speculate on what happened and then try to prove their theory, but methodically work through the evidence to see where that leads them.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

The time line of when problems probably developed go back before the entry into the turn.

There was dirty air he flew through as reported by a pilot behind him as he entered the turn. The T/W seemed to be extending even before the initial pitch up. Did the gear handle get knocked out of the up position? Did the handle never get properly put into the full up position and a failure of the hyd system allow it to extend?

I would think that if that happened, the main gear doors at minimum would have begun to open. There's no indication of any main gear activity.

And those that actually WORK on them have confirmed that high-Gs like that experienced by GG could pop out a P-51's tail wheel gear.


I believe the facts rule-out a landing gear lever error.


.

[Dash]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

Not to mention that a high g maneuver can be used to help extend and lock gear in place if they don't extend when the gear is placed in the down position.

[GregS]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

All great points...and sadly, here's what's being reported by the Reno-Gazett-Urinal. NTSB CONFIRMS AIRFRAME SEPARATION.


Really? Airframe? I'd kill any of my kids that went into journaism.

Hacks.

Greg

[sandramore]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

All great points...and sadly, here's what's being reported by the Reno-Gazett-Urinal. NTSB CONFIRMS AIRFRAME SEPARATION.


Really? Airframe? I'd kill any of my kids that went into journaism.

Hacks.

Greg

They're just quoting the NTSB preliminary report: "Witnesses reported and photographic evidence indicates that a piece of the airframe separated during these maneuvers."

[51fixer]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

I would think that if that happened, the main gear doors at minimum would have begun to open. There's no indication of any main gear activity.

And those that actually WORK on them have confirmed that high-Gs like that experienced by GG could pop out a P-51's tail wheel gear.


I believe the facts rule-out a landing gear lever error.


.

Actually there is 4 parts to what is connected to the Landing Gear Handle. Each of these parts goes to a series of components that require rigging and adjustment.
Inside the console to the pilots left is a 2 armed bellcrank. To this bellcrank are 2 cables that go aft to the Tailwheel Uplock and Downlock. Each is a separate part and the only common connection of the cables is the attachment point at the bellcrank in the cockpit. The locks are spring loaded to engage and the cable will pull to release. Each cable has an adjustment point as a turnbarrel in line in the cables.
The Gear Handle bellcrank has a cable at the top and the bottom. Also attached to the bottom is 2 push-pull rods, 1 goes to the up lock system for the MLG in the fwd cockpit and the 2nd rod goes through the floor of the cockpit to a series of push-pull rods, levers and bellcranks in the wheel well. This series of linkages connects to the inner gear door up locks and also to the hyd selector valve.
Each of the parts can have a different amount of pre load, slack and wear. The uplock detent can have wear. I've worked on some where it is hard to get the handle into the detent, some too easy. On some the T/W will drop 1st when you just start to move the handle and you have to push the handle further to get the MLG to unlock and the inner doors to open.
I don't know how the gear system on this A/C was rigged, but to say that the T/W will only move when the MLG doors do isn't exactly how it is in every case.
I will admit G forces can unlock the T/W as well as some wear, rigging or lack of fully having the handle locked being an influence on this.

On a side note,
One P-51 I took care of the pilot almost did a gear up landing as he thought he put the handle down but it didn't quite go into the down detent and it bounced back up. The T/W extended. When the gear horn sounded on short final he did a go around and found where the gear handle was, put it down and made an uneventful landing.

[hattend]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

Real short:

What I saw was what I thought was a wake turbulence upset rounding pylon 8. Could this have caused the trim tab failure?

Did anybody else hear the engine (or prop) surge twice after the upset? Or was that my imagination?

I was in box A-81 and for a split second I was looking down the spinner.

Blue Skies, Jimmy. We'll miss you.

Don Hatten
Go Bear!

[GregS]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

I agree w/last post...& after seeing Jason S's video saw the "overbank" situation, w/ maybe worse....then the pitch up, & the tab exiting near the top/start of the roll...now I'm completely confused. It sort of does look like turbulence../ I dunno...'n I'll sit back & listen to those who know alot more than I.

GregS

[hattend]

Re: NTSB preliminary report

Real short:

Did anybody else hear the engine (or prop) surge twice after the upset? Or was that my imagination?

After watching Jason's video it's quite clear what I heard was the sound of flutter, delayed by distance.

Unbelievable...

Don Hatten
Go Bear!