B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

[SkyvanDelta]

I saw it twice this morning, flying low around 2,000' heading Eastbound flying over Highway 80. Flying from Hayward Airport May 11-13. http://www.b17.org/landing.asp

Take a look at the last video titled "Historic Footage" in the Video Gallery Section on the site.

It must have been a lot of fun as a German Fighter Pilot running into a flock of B17s in formation. They look like an easy target, slow, unable to maneuver...

[eeyore]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

B-17 were not easy prey slow yes, held in formation for the bomb run yes. Bristling with self defense guns, half of all German aircraft fell to gunners on Bombers.

[C_roundy]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

It must have been a lot of fun as a German Fighter Pilot running into a flock of B17s in formation. They look like an easy target, slow, unable to maneuver...

SkyvanDelta, no offense taken because you are not finished becoming a grown man; -BUT- You really need to learn that not only did very few of the German pilots who had to fight the allied powers even survive their (quite long) bomber attack combat tours, but also, and much more importantly, having the job of violently killing young men who are fighting for their own country just like themselves, is just about the most tragic, most serious business a man could ever have.

To put it very simply, among grown men, only a few very sick individuals think of killing other men as fun.

I highly respect your efforts to learn details of history, but please realize that along with that knowledge comes the responsibility to understand and respect what the sacrifices of warriors for their countries really mean.

Keep reading, and keep learning, you are on the right track!

Best regards, Chuck Roundy

[AirDOGGe]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

Missed the Boeing. I guess Hayward was as close as they were going to get. I never saw it in the air over here.

B-17 were not easy prey slow yes, held in formation for the bomb run yes. Bristling with self defense guns, half of all German aircraft fell to gunners on Bombers.

I believe that's because, in the European theater at least, so many German fighters were eventually used to attack the massive fleets of Allied bombers striking German targets seemingly every day.

And, along with all those 50-caliber guns firing at them, they also had to deal with maneuvering a fighter aircraft at rather high altitudes in thin air where performance is reduced greatly.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

To put it very simply, among grown men, only a few very sick individuals think of killing other men as fun.

Hi Chuck, I think (hope) that the word "fun" wasn't really meant in the classic definition of the word, perhaps even with the reverse "fun" that a lot of us use when something is anything but

Anyway, I saw a PBS aired documentary several years ago (I think it was PBS) and they were interviewing both sides, the German fighter pilots, and the Allied air crew.. It was fascinating to hear both sides saying pretty much the same thing.. they were scared as hell of each other.

The German fighter guys saw the bomber boxes as exactly what they were... 100's of .50 guns aimed at them as they attempted to get in their runs on the bombers... I think I remember at least one of them saying something to the effect that he felt naked...

The Allied bomber guys were feeling the same way about the German fighter pilots.. they felt naked, nothing but a thin sheet of aluminum between them and the stuff being thrown at them..

Two large groups of very scared young men fighting each other. I think it's hard for most of us who were not there to really understand the experience, personally..

Shortly after spending the better part of an hour with a German 109 fighter in a museum, I was sitting in the tail gunner slot on a B-17 flying low and slow at fairly low altitude. I got major goose bumps thinking about what it must have felt like being back there, alone, when a 109 or something equally sinister was coming up on you... I could easily imagine soiling myself in that situation!

Bottom line, bunch of brave guys they were... both sides!

[C_roundy]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

Hi Chuck, I think (hope) that the word "fun" wasn't really meant in the classic definition of the word, perhaps even with the reverse "fun" that a lot of us use when something is anything but ...........................


...............The German fighter guys saw the bomber boxes as exactly what they were... 100's of .50 guns aimed at them as they attempted to get in their runs on the bombers... I think I remember at least one of them saying something to the effect that he felt naked...

The Allied bomber guys were feeling the same way about the German fighter pilots.. they felt naked, nothing but a thin sheet of aluminum between them and the stuff being thrown at them..

Two large groups of very scared young men fighting each other. I think it's hard for most of us who were not there to really understand the experience, personally.........................

Bottom line, bunch of brave guys they were... both sides!

Words of truth Wayne, men sooo young overcoming fear and looking death in the face over and over, so many of them dying brutally as they knew was likely. And so many of the ones that survived were irrevocably emotionally scarred by the horror of holding their buddies in their arms as they bled out, as they tried to die with honor, over and over.

(My own father was never even remotely the same after Vietnam)

SkyvanDelta is one of the good eggs among today's youth. And it means more to me than words can say, that we find a way to give him and other good kids like him enough truth, that they have a chance to understand and appreciate the sacrifices their forefathers made for them,

I fervently hope that we manage to help at least some of them learn to never, ever think of war like the video games so many of them play for fun.

Stepping off soap box commencing immediately, thanks for letting me vent.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

[RAD2LTR]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

It was Aluminum Overcast. There were in Napa last weekend. I never saw or heard them fly.

Will

[Mike51]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

Amazing how the organizers time these things. B-17 in Hayward this week, Collings bombers in Moffett, a few miles away, next week!

[Plane Nuts]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

I didn't see or hear the B-17 over Napa last weekend either. Wasn't able to make to the airport. Were they there? Saw it fly over Napa today around 4:30 on it's way from Hayward to Hillsboro Orgegon according to Aluminum Overcast website.

[flyboycpa]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

It probably was Aluminum Overcast. They were in Santa Ana/Orange County this weekend.

[Mike51]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

It probably was Aluminum Overcast. They were in Santa Ana/Orange County this weekend.

No, that was the Collings Bombers at Orange County. Aluminum Overcast was at Hayward.

[ShermB]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

Aluminum Overcast will be at the Museum of Flight (Boeing Field) after her stint at Hillsboro. Cascade Warbirds, Sq. 2 of the EAA,will be hosting her before she goes to Spokane. Cascade Warbids will also have their planes on static display on Sat., May 26.

[Leo]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

It took serious courage, or the exuberance of youth (short lived in this scenario) to fly and fight for BOTH sides.
In the abstract, try, in one of the various video games available, to attack a B-17 formation. In hundreds of attempts I have NEVER not received damage. Even attacking a straggler is like trying to hug a porcupine.
Slow and fairly un-maneuverable as they were they had awesome firepower for the time and made it like running a gauntlet. Historians tend to diminish the effect of bomber firepower, that the "Flying Fortress" was anything but that. Still, for a 109 or 190 pilot with few hours under their belt it had to be a daunting task.
And for the gunners and pilots, seeing those wings winking at you and knowing that someone was trying to kill YOU had to be a helpless feeling.
I have nothing but respect for the men of all country's that fought that war that way.
There is a great documentary out there called "All the fine young men". A little anti-war I guess but VERY sobering to watch.

[eeyore]

Re: B17 4 engine Bomber putting around the skies of Oakland today.

Leo. Half of all German aircraft shot down in WW2 by American were shot down by the self defense gunners of the Bombers. Hard to image 40,000 feet on Oxygen 50 degrees below zero and 1/8 aluminum between you and 20 mm cannon fire. All the Brave Young Men was well done. Any honest look at war is antiwar. If you can find it great WW2 movie about the ground war in Europe is "When Trumpets Fade"