Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

[rampking]

http://www.lvrj.com/news/red-flag-thunderbirds-at-nellis-targeted-for-grounding-190244941.html

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

I heard the Navy's "Blues" ++++ may get curtailed also.

[SkyvanDelta]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

Keep in mind, some of these cuts may be due to:

1. Unsustainable 6 figure retirement pensions and lifetime medical care for some Government Employees.
2. Birthright Citizenship for babies whose parents have entered this country illegally.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/content/27/3205/4103

3. Chain Migration.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/hot-topics/more-topics/chain-migration.html

4. Visa Lottery.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/hot-topics/more-topics/visa-lottery.html-0

5. Failure to enforce E Verify for employment.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/hot-topics/more-topics/e-verify.html-0

6. etc etc etc

If you want to protect the United States of America, spend some time and do some research on this website: https://www.numbersusa.com/content/about-us.html

Immigration by the Numbers -- Off the Charts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muw22wTePqQ

[jason]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

loosing the thunderbirds and red flag really sucks but that sounds like who is in the white house.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

As a former Naval Aviator, with a brother who is a LtCol in the Air Force let me say that if you people think that 'who is in the white house' is the reason for any threats of the flight demonstration teams being on the chopping block, I will once again say that you guys need to take the politics off-site. I flew both under Republican and Democratic White Houses, and the losing party will always complain that the winning party is responsible for the gloom and doom.

As far back as when I was a kid in the early '70's I can remember politicians on both sides of the house using both flight demonstration teams as political pawns. This is not something new. It happens every few years or so, and yet they still go on. There is always some retired Admiral or General who thinks the money is better spend somewhere else, or some Senator who has an agenda of his own. They always make lots of threats and posturing, and yet in the end it always ends up pulling through.

Did you guys bother to do your research and see that in 1973 BOTH teams were grounded? A lot of it was due to the oil crisis...but money is money, right? The Thunderbirds only flew SIX shows that year. The Blues flew more, but after an accident at Lakehurst the DoD grounded them for the remainder of the season too. AND A REPUBLICAN WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE. A two-term Republican who resigned in lieu of impeachment. It works both ways, fellas. But yet they were flying again the following year.

If you guys (and yes, there are a couple of you that I am once again specifically targeting) want to rag on the adminstration, I reccommend going here:

http://americanswhohateobama.com/

http://ihateobama.com/

Keep this site to just the aviation stuff, please.

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

Fix bayonets & charge. As Jay Leno joked "Push 2 for English". I think I'll have another cold one.

[rampking]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

Did you guys bother to do your research and see that in 1973 BOTH teams were grounded? A lot of it was due to the oil crisis...but money is money, right? The Thunderbirds only flew SIX shows that year. The Blues flew more, but after an accident at Lakehurst the DoD grounded them for the remainder of the season too. AND A REPUBLICAN WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE. A two-term Republican who resigned in lieu of impeachment. It works both ways, fellas. But yet they were flying again the following year.

Keep this site to just the aviation stuff, please.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, I know some history and you picked the wrong year for an example.

'1973' was the year that the USA finally withdrew from the Vietnam War.
A war that was lost in 1975 after North Vietnam broke the Paris Peace Treaty, resulting in the fall of Saigon.
Between 1962-73 1,737 fix-winged American aircraft lost to enemy action.
Shocking how many F-105's alone were lost.
A war where air superiority had almost slipped almost to parity..a ratio of only 2 to 1 against a third world nation armed by the PRC and the Soviet Union.
However lessons were painfully learned and steps were taken to correct this problem , thus Operation Red Flag was started in 1975.
The Navy's Top Gun's fighter pilot school's first class was in 1969 but was considerally advanced again in the same year of 1975
with the initiating of a Air Combat Maneuvering Range, a computer system that tracks dogfights, aids in teaching tactics, weapons performance and safety .
What I am saying is this is way beyond politics.
Since 1975, the USN, USMC and USAF has dominated the air in every conflict or war this country had been invoved with regardless of which party was in control of Washington.
You can talk Serbia and Libya or Iraq and Afghanistan, over-powering airpower carried the day and there was a reason and it wan't always just better aircraft.....it was the TRAINING of our pilots.
And because of this lives were saved in the air and especially on the ground.
To me, both of these military exercises are 'no-go' military issues that should be off the table to any political infighting.
As of right this moment, one Red Flag exercise is coming to a conclusion, and only one more is confirmed.
This is far too important to think that..... yet in the end things always ends up pulling through.

Again referring to 1973, there was a hell of lot more going on than an oil crisis.
A little matter called the Yom Kipper War when Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria.
The combat equipment attrition within the IDF was unsustainable....especially tanks and A-4's.
MAC of the U.S. Air Force alone shipped 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies in C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft between October 14 and November 14, 1973.
These were not all factory orders, a lot of it straight out of our own military inventory including heavy tanks.
Of course the Soviet Union was busy supplying Syria and Egypt at the same time while also stationing a military airbase within Egypt.
Once again the USA and the USSR were pushing close to the brink, aircraft and ships being rushed to the area.
Again this is the same year while we were getting the hell out of of Vietnam.
A lot of stuff had an effect on military aviation operations/demo teams in 1973, the OPEC oil embargo was only a part of it.
That said, it was 1974 that fuel efficient T-38 Talons replaced the F-4 in the Thunderbirds which lasted until the Diamond line-abreast crash in 1981 .

[Big_Jim]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

Eh...nevermind. It's not worth it.

Have at it, guys.

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

Maybe we should do it the Chinese way & just have an annual kite festival where thousands show & tell with their kites. Lots of sizes,colors & designs. We could have it in Reno on a windy day.

[FuryFan]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

"With all due respect, et al ...."

That's quite a "history" lesson, but what's it got to do with the flight demonstration teams?

Kevin

[rampking]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

"With all due respect, et al ...."

That's quite a "history" lesson, but what's it got to do with the flight demonstration teams?

Kevin

I posted the original article for informational purposes and intentionally left no editorial or political comments.

However there was a challenge to do our "research" regarding what happened in '1973' regarding flt demo teams ops and I responded.
There was a hell of a lot more going on than money issues and oil shortages at the Pentagon and I spelled it out. The following year both flt demo teams downgraded to trainer aircraft ( T-38 & A-4F)

Btw, yes...the flt demo teams are a huge part of the Reno Air Races, but my biggest concern is the possibility of the elimination of Operation Red Flag* and when he decided to pick 1973 of all years as an example it pushed my button.
In my opinion, one of the most pivotal years in this nation's military.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

I can think of a lot of things the USAF should cut before it grounds the T-Birds or cancels Red Flag.

This would be my first choice amongst many in the don't-contribute-to-the-war-effort wastes of money and manpower:

http://www.topsinblue.com/

That being said, if it keeps equipment maintained, fuel in the tanks, and air under the butts of combat air forces needed to maintain US air dominance, then let the T-Clones shut down for a few years.

Let 'em come back in a couple years to fly fancy painted T-6As like the Esquadrilha da Fumaça -- who, in the only time I have seen them, put on a ridiculously good show at Abbotsford '86 and were more interesting to watch than either of the US jet teams.

Although the jet teams are great recruiting tools, and are still technically able to be 'combat' squadrons should the need arise, the world is not coming to an end if they stop flying for a year or three.

[rampking]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

Indeed, the Blue Angels were incorparated into VF-191 "Satan's Kittens" F9F Panther jets for the Korean War.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

However there was a challenge to do our "research" regarding what happened in '1973' regarding flt demo teams ops and I responded.

And in doing so completely missed the point of my post. But whatever.

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Budget cuts may eliminate Thunderbirds and Operation Red Flag

I can think of a lot of things the USAF should cut before it grounds the T-Birds or cancels Red Flag.

This would be my first choice amongst many in the don't-contribute-to-the-war-effort wastes of money and manpower:

http://www.topsinblue.com/

That being said, if it keeps equipment maintained, fuel in the tanks, and air under the butts of combat air forces needed to maintain US air dominance, then let the T-Clones shut down for a few years.

Let 'em come back in a couple years to fly fancy painted T-6As like the Esquadrilha da Fumaça -- who, in the only time I have seen them, put on a ridiculously good show at Abbotsford '86 and were more interesting to watch than either of the US jet teams.

Although the jet teams are great recruiting tools, and are still technically able to be 'combat' squadrons should the need arise, the world is not coming to an end if they stop flying for a year or three.

Esquadrilha da Fumaca did put on one heck of a show at Abbotsford '86. I think pretty much every military demonstration team was there that year (The Red Arrows weren't there, but the French and Italian teams were,) Those guys however put on the best show. The 4 things I remember from that year, E.d.F put on the best show, the SR-71 was there (can't remember which one though) I got blown on my butt by the Concord on takeoff, and our Cessna 175 with a very bent prop ended up parked between a Sea Fury and a Mustang, because Ground control directed my dad into an unmarked ditch so the Antonov AN124 (or was it the 224?) could land behind us.

I'll say Abbotsford '86 was the best airshow I've ever been to.

Will