Patriot Demo Team

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

I've personally never heard an Air Boss call a "knock it off" on an act without something going very wrong. I don't know what else it could have been.

As was posted earlier, it was an accusation by the FAA that they cut the corner, which was later proved false by the video.

With respect to the pass in the photo....racers don't all hold zero-altitude ACE cards like the Patriot performers do. Comparison is apples and oranges. Discussion of the FAA "slapping" anyone, given that qualification and that it is part of the normal Patriots show, is also not relevant.

So far as "unnecessary risk" during the week this year, in my approximation it was an unusually boring and conservative year. Of course, that's a good thing this time around.

[JCP]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

I have yet to see any evidence that the "knock it off" was in response to a corner cut (other than a post ) and personally find it hard to believe an Air Boss would call off the act so quickly for that. "Knock it off" is usually reserved for something VERY serious. I do see a totally unnecessarily low pass however.

I really appreciate your service to our country Randy, but with all due respect, Air Racing and Air Shows are completely different than flying in combat or for our government. I'm sure you would agree.

This is a sport called Air Racing and everything else that happens during the week between the races is the "eye candy". This is the "Reno Air Races" and unless we want it to become the "Reno Air Show" than we really need the Racing Gods to be kind in the next few years.

Having an ACE card doesn't mean Jack **** when you hit the ground. Sooo, I would call it quite relevant and indeed apples to apples. The folks that have earned Ace Cards have obviously gone through the process and proven their ability so they are able to perform certain maneuvers at Air Shows..awesome. But, we still have accidents and we still have excellent Pilots (even with ACE cards) who are no longer with us. Do I really need to remind you of two especially talented Air Racers and Ace card holders that we've lost this year and that we all admired? My point is that it can happen to the best.

Regarding the Race Pilots and Ace card holders: I know several people with ACE cards that are not even half as talented as some of the race pilots that have no interest in getting one.

I'm proud of all the racers for pulling off an "unusually boring and conservative year" as you put it Randy.......I'm glad none of them (especially the ones with ACE cards) felt the need to jeopardize our sport with unnecessary apples to apples showing off.

Fact is, most of us love flying low and really love watching low passes...but I don't know anyone in Air Racing that would jeopardize the sport by doing so at the Races. Save that stuff for the Air Shows and after 5:00pm when the Feds go home.

I love Air Show aerobatics and would even like to do more of them in my own Air Show routines, but this is Air Racing. One slip up can end it all right now. Sound judgement is imperative. Even if is does look a little "boring" to some.

JC

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

A member of the Patriots team told me about the corner cut and how it was resolved via video review, so that's about as reliable of a source as I can think of. I can't offer some media link to back that up, unfortunately. Since the FAA's accusation ended up being unsubstantiated, I doubt we'll ever see anything in print about it, either. I'm happy to eat crow if it turns out to be something else.

The ACE card comment was in reply to your quote that, "That would be a DQ for the Unlimiteds". An aerobatic routine isn't an unlimited race -- the rules are different. I'm not claiming to have special knowledge of either; I haven't raced an unlimited, nor do I have an ACE card. The comment is no more relevant, though, than me saying that I'd be grounded permanently from the USAF for making such a low pass. While true, it still has no relevance on if it was legal or appropriate for the Patriots to do it in their routine. All of them are totally different games that have different standards and expectations.

I understand your point that, given the overall situation in terms of the event being under the microscope, it might have been smart to play it conservative.

The Patriots, however, were hired to perform their routine -- it is not the Patriots' job to manage risk for RARA. It's not like they just decided out of the blue to "show off" as you say, and spring something new on RARA when they flew their show. You and I both know that airshow performers have specific routines that are meticulously planned, rehearsed, and executed the same way, every time, to ensure both a safe performance and an entertaining performance. RARA knew what they were buying; if RARA had wanted specific elements of the performance omitted to keep the risk lower, I'm sure they could have negotiated that with the team. It's begging the question, anyway, to assume that the low pass was somehow inherently more risky than anything else they do during their routine.

It certainly wasn't in the Patriots' wheelhouse to drop elements of their performance on their own accord to reduce some perception of risk because of their concern for the future of the NCAR. That's not what professionals do. The best thing they could do was execute as clean and tight of a performance of their planned routine as was possible.

I don't want the NCAR to end any more than you do. I was extremely happy that things went the way they did, and hope that it's enough to keep the party going next year and beyond.

I just don't see how throwing stones at the Patriots over something that didn't happen is helping support that point of view. We're not throwing stones at Matt Jackson for his judgment in handing the gear issues with Furias....we're not busting on Dennis Sanders for getting caught in wake turbulence by Pylon 2 and overbanking past 90-degrees twice, on two subsequent laps in the same race. We're not questioning how Thom Richard flew three laps at race speeds without knowing a big part had come off his aircraft.

These are all things that "could" have caused something more significant to happen, but didn't. Why no furor over those?

We all want the same result here, but I just don't see how the Patriots performance introduced any more risk into the mix than anything else that happened out on the course during the week.

[JCP]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

Very Simple......

Every person and situation you mentioned involved an Air Racer involved in a situation during an [I]Air Race. Let's also not forget to mention that none of them were Black Flagged...you know, the racer equivalent of a "Knock it Off"

The Patriot's are excellent, no question......but they did not sell a single ticket and nobody really cares if they are there or not. They are the "eye candy" to fill time between races. They are not there to Jeopardize the sport that the men you mentioned work so hard to build and keep going.

As I said before..... Air Show performance ( Awesome ). But, these are the Races and every performer should respect the the fragile state of affairs of our Sport and I believe a "Knock it off" is contrary to that, for whatever the reason.

To even compare their "performance choices" to the emergency situations and known possible factors that the racers may encounter is absolutely ludicrous.... you just threw some of the best men in the business under the bus just to try to make a point at which you have failed.

Quite lame.

JC

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

Very Simple......

Every person and situation you mentioned involved an Air Racer involved in a situation during an Air Race. Let's also not forget to mention that none of them were Black Flagged...you know, the racer equivalent of a "Knock it Off"

I agree -- none of the racers I mentioned as examples were black flagged because they didn't do anything wrong (that was exactly my point in bringing them up; quite the opposite of 'throwing them under the bus'). These were simply situations that came up that 'could have' turned into something risky but didn't.

Just like the Patriots weren't KIO'd because of the low pass that you guys are talking about that could have theoretically gone bad -- a pass they performed safely every day during their performances pretty much exactly the same way, and failed to elicit a KIO on any of them. Again, it was an FAA accusation of a corner cut which elicited the KIO, which was later proven wrong.

I get it that Reno is the "Air Races" and that one set of events occurred during a race and the other during the show between races. Like it or not, the "races" are also an "airshow", which is why those acts can perform. Like you, I don't particularly care for the airshow acts, but clearly RARA has calculated that some percentage of the viewing audience in the grandstands does, and continues to book acts every year.

If your point is, "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk," then that is a spear to throw at RARA, not at the performers. The Patriots were hired to execute a performance, which they did. RARA knew exactly what the Patriot performance included when they booked them. They were perfectly aware of the risks and perceptions of risk involved, and could have taken steps to change the performance if they wanted to.

[JCP]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

"If your point is, "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk," then that is a spear to throw at RARA, not at the performers. The Patriots were hired to execute a performance, which they did. RARA knew exactly what the Patriot performance included when they booked them. They were perfectly aware of the risks and perceptions of risk involved, and could have taken steps to change the performance if they wanted to."


Don't put words in my mouth Randy, my point was and is very clear and I've never stated or inferred "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk"

"The Patriots were hired to execute a performance, which they did. RARA knew exactly what the Patriot performance included when they booked them"

Really? I'm pretty sure that they were not hired to perform a routine that has "knock it off occurs now" written into it.

JC

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

Don't put words in my mouth Randy, my point was and is very clear and I've never stated or inferred "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk"

Okay, that's fair -- I apologize for incorrectly summarizing what I thought your position was.

You think that the Patriots should have changed their show for this event, then?

Really? I'm pretty sure that they were not hired to perform a routine that has "knock it off occurs now" written into it.

I agree: the Patriots don't have that written into their show, and that's not what RARA hired. The KIO was based on an FAA guy who made a on-the-spot call about a corner cut which later proved to be false in the post-flight debrief.

The system worked exactly as it should, IMHO. FAA observer made his call based on what he saw real time, and judgment was made after gathering all the information and assessing it at zero knots and one G.

[flyboycpa]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

Agree to disagree.

Now kiss and make up.

You know what they say about arguments on the internet, nobody really cares and it makes you both look silly.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

Agree to disagree.

Now kiss and make up.

You know what they say about arguments on the internet, nobody really cares and it makes you both look silly.

FWIW, I have been enjoying this discussion by two pilots of high performance aircraft. It's been polite, IMHO and both have shown respect to the other. It's an informative discussion and is exactly the way I like to see "discussions", particularly, disagreements take place.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

FWIW, I have been enjoying this discussion by two pilots of high performance aircraft. It's been polite, IMHO and both have shown respect to the other. It's an informative discussion and is exactly the way I like to see "discussions", particularly, disagreements take place.

I agree...it hasn't been an 'argument'. We can absoultely disagree, and none of it is personal.

I certainly respect John-Curtiss' perspective and that he has infinitely more experience than I do flying/building/wrenching/racing warbirds.

This is no different than any other spirited friday-night discussion between airplane people over drinks. After all, isn't that the whole point of a 'discussion' forum?

[JCP]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

I totally agree that none of this stuff is personal or argumentative.

I happen to love Air Show Aerobatics and I don't think that there is a better civilian Jet Team out there than the Patriots. Well....until we see the Horseman in F-86's!

Like the man said, there is nothing wrong with a little "discussion" when it's civil. I think this has been just that, a very civil discussion.

JC

[C_roundy]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

I for one, know that I have been privileged to listen to this discussion.

Randy, John, I suppose that the best thing I can do, is to beg you guys to keep airing it out here; regardless of the differences coming in your future discussions.

I have the Highest respect for you both, and that only increases as you both continue to share your minds with us.

Thanks, and don't shy away please!
Chuck Roundy

P.S. I do get that this particular issue is mostly worked out between you two already.....

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

Here are a couple pics of the low pass.





Will

[FuryFan]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

For some of the Russian demo pilots that's practically cruising altitude!!

Kevin

[Ebehne]

Re: Patriot Demo Team

I don't think its totally fair to blame the Patriots. RARA must have known what they were getting. I know that circumstances were different this year, but I think that if RARA had specifically asked them to fly a little higher they would've and all controversy/risk could have been avoided.

It's not like they haven't done it before...The picture below was taken 9/16/2011 from ground level in the box seats.