Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

I remember last year seeing water from the boil off system coming out the tail, didn't see that this year.

It was most definitely venting when the Bear taxied back in after the race.

[Nobody]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

I'll not argue that a race pilot would have to "lace their boots real tight" to be better than Lyle, Tiger, Skip, "the kid" etc... but I don't think the word "afraid" is fair to Stu... When the airplane was working well for him and he didn't have the constant distraction of trying to watch an instrument panel that is shaking so badly at speed that he can barely see it, he flew the course pretty darn well.. (his qual speed clearly shows that he's in control of the airplane when it's working)

Would Skip fly her faster? Would love to get the chance to know, Is Stu afraid of the airplane? I sincerely doubt it..

I'd bet Lyle had a healthy fear of his airplane every time he climbed in. Was he truly fearless? He sure looked it didn't he! A pilot who climbs into an airplane without the knowledge that this flight could kill him, even a 152, is either an idiot or not well trained. (See: JFK junior.) Lyle was one of the rare aviators and Hinton's kid seems to be as well. You think Steve senior trained junior well in the knowledge that these airplanes can kill you in an instant so pay attention and be ready for that moment when it all goes to hell? You think that doesn't involve a healthy fear of the next 20 minutes at 100 feet and 490 mph? Lyle had RB blow up in his face many times and in 1992 he actually stayed on the course for a few seconds as the engine came apart. Cool customer. Aimed for 14, knew he couldn't make it, landed on closed 18 and was calm as could be when he came back to the pits. That's what Rare Bear needs again. I would love to see the kid step over to the Rare Bear cockpit--maybe that's the boost they need to work out the bugs and get back on top.

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old, bold pilots.

[440_Magnum]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

It was most definitely venting when the Bear taxied back in after the race.

Another thing: If they were having cylinder head overheating, they probably never got to push the kind of power that would even reject massive amounts of heat to the oil, so the boiler never really had to work hard. Its sorta like a car with an electric cooling fan-how much that fan runs depends on how much power you're demanding from the engine.

[440_Magnum]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

The Lyle factor in reality was bigger than life, when Lyle was racing the Bearcat he could and did make all the decisions that needed to be made in that
oment. It was his airplane, he was the pilot AND he was a monster of a competitor.

As time passes, it becomes more and more amazing to me what you guys did during those years, John.

[Hans Oberev]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

Ron, I read that the plane can not carry enough nitrous to run it long enough to make a difference. Kind of like KERS in F1...maybe use that brief surge to make a pass but that's it.
I also heard from a reliable source that their wing was not the best design for speed. Maybe have to make so much power to overcome that the other systems just can't handle it.
Won't have to worry about next yr being a boring race cuz Strega is not running.

[440_Magnum]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

Ron, I read that the plane can not carry enough nitrous to run it long enough to make a difference. Kind of like KERS in F1...maybe use that brief surge to make a pass but that's it.
I also heard from a reliable source that their wing was not the best design for speed. Maybe have to make so much power to overcome that the other systems just can't handle it.
Won't have to worry about next yr being a boring race cuz Strega is not running.

Suggest you dig back (use the search tools) and look at posts that John Slack has made in past years about the Bear during the time his dad owned it, especially when they made the world record speed run over New Mexico The Bear carries more nitrous than just a huff for a pass. How often they actually USED it (other than the speed record run) is another matter.

The wing... well sure. You can look up the airfoil that a Bearcat uses compared to a Mustang or Sea Fury, and its definitely not as good for sustained high speed. That's a given, but that's just one factor of many. The Bear is light, and small, with a smaller "wetted area" (less skin drag) than either a Mustang or Sea Fury, and has a superb race canopy designed and built by Lyle himself IIRC, a very tight cowl that reduces the drag penalty for carrying a radial instead of an inline (232 also has a wonderfully tight cowl and spinner), exhaust ejectors that aid in scavenging out the cowl and increasing cooling airflow and add thrust (same for the Sea Furies), and a thousand other things that help offset a less ideal wing. Any number of people with a lot of knowledge believe that if *EVERYTHING* about the Bear is working right, it can run with the fastest Mustangs. Sure, whenever anyone says that- I don't care if its a test pilot who has flown the plane, or engineer or mechanic with 50 years experience or just me sitting on an office chair, they're making an estimate and using some judgement so there's room for error. If someone ever says categorically that the Bear is slower than Strega or that the Bear is faster than Strega, then I smell an overstatement. the unknowns in every engineer's or pilot's assessment of each airplane are precisely why they take them out and race them, and that's why Tiger and Steven sounded disappointed that the Bear was having problems.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

I'd bet Lyle had a healthy fear of his airplane every time he climbed in. Was he truly fearless?

John would be the better one to respond to this but I truly feel that Lyle was, indeed, fearless... at least when it came to racing the Bear. I'm pretty sure that even if there was some "fear" in Lyle when he raced, his extreme competitive nature pushed that emotion so far back into his being that you could, truly, call him a fearless racer. Skip Holm, Tiger D, and now "the kid", might well have that same nature. In Stephen's case, I think exposure to flight from just after conception and pure genetics, make him such a natural aviator, there is probably little about the process that actually induces "fear" for him..

Back on topic with this slightly branch of the original topic .. John, would you agree about Lyle? Some things might well have scared him but I'd bet flying the Bear on a race course wasn't one of them.

[Hans Oberev]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

440 Magnum, well said! Go Bear!

[Race5]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

It was most definitely venting when the Bear taxied back in after the race.

I think this just shows the level of refinement over the years in their boiler system. When operating at it's peak efficiency a boiler should vent very little "steam" over board. The water droplets should collect and be returned to the liquid in the tank. The first year it belched ADI out the tail when running in a three point stance. Last year it didn't pump fluid out, but did produce a lot of steam. This year, very little steam at any time.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

I think this just shows the level of refinement over the years in their boiler system. When operating at it's peak efficiency a boiler should vent very little "steam" over board. The water droplets should collect and be returned to the liquid in the tank. The first year it belched ADI out the tail when running in a three point stance. Last year it didn't pump fluid out, but did produce a lot of steam. This year, very little steam at any time.

Race5.. I'm not sure that's correct, the way I understand the boiloffs, they "consume" the coolant by venting it overboard and the system adds more fluid as it's "boiled off". In a large steam heat or steam plant, they do have recovery systems to keep the fluid more-or-less captive and have to add little "water" to the system. Again, I think the venting is necessary in the aircraft system. The reason we didn't see steam may have been due to atmospheric conditions, lighting, etc...

DT.. correct me if I'm wrong please..

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

The boil off system might have been part of the issue. Friday night as I was walking the pits in the dark I overheard part of a converstation between Mr Cornell and Steve H. Jr. It sounded like there might be an issue with getting an air bubble somewhere in the boiloff system that causes issues. It sounds like the reason is because the tank sits at an angle and if the water sloshes it traps air or something. I'm not 100% sure they were talking about the boiloff system or not, but it sounded like it.

Mr Cornell also had an interesting story about riding around in Jay Leno's tank car and loosing an oil line somewhere in L.A. Apparently it made quite a mess.

Will

[ChrisMX105]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

Without getting into gnarly details and top secret info I can assure you the boiloff is working as intended with 0 issues

[Ebehne]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

Any number of people with a lot of knowledge believe that if *EVERYTHING* about the Bear is working right, it can run with the fastest Mustangs. Sure, whenever anyone says that- I don't care if its a test pilot who has flown the plane, or engineer or mechanic with 50 years experience or just me sitting on an office chair, they're making an estimate and using some judgement so there's room for error. If someone ever says categorically that the Bear is slower than Strega or that the Bear is faster than Strega, then I smell an overstatement. the unknowns in every engineer's or pilot's assessment of each airplane are precisely why they take them out and race them, and that's why Tiger and Steven sounded disappointed that the Bear was having problems.

I'm pretty sure that anyone who categorically says that a healthy bear can't run with mustangs wasn't at Stead in 2003 on Friday. Its unfortunate that it seems to always take everything going right for that plane to be THAT fast, but that just seems to be the nature of this particular beast. I'm sure we will see it run with a mustang again, the question now is which mustang? Anyone want to split the cost of Voodoo with me?

[440_Magnum]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?

I think this just shows the level of refinement over the years in their boiler system. When operating at it's peak efficiency a boiler should vent very little "steam" over board. The water droplets should collect and be returned to the liquid in the tank. The first year it belched ADI out the tail when running in a three point stance. Last year it didn't pump fluid out, but did produce a lot of steam. This year, very little steam at any time.

Venting the water/alcohol vapor overboard is the ONLY way that a boiloff system rejects heat away from the airplane. If there were enough cooling around the boiler tank to re-condense the vapor, then there's enough cooling to cool the oil directly and there would be no need for the boiler. Does that make sense? Changing the state from liquid to vapor requires a lot of calories of heat, but those same calories have to be removed from the VAPOR to change it back to liquid, and that can't happen without some form of heat-exchanger and the drag of a heat exchanger is exactly what the boiler tries to eliminate. Basically the vapor leaving the A/C takes the heat with it, so if vapor isn't coming out that means that not much heat is going in.

That said, the first year when it puked LIQUID out... no need for that! The vapor should ideally be invisible until it hits cooler air and begins to condense.

[boomtown]

Re: Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?



These are on takeoff heading into form up on Sunday. You can see her venting a little.